(276)S11E8/6: The Propaganda of Hell w/Cody Cook and Keith Giles
Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. In this interview, I had the opportunity to talk with Keith Giles and Cody Cook on the topic of hell. I thought it would be a really good discussion to have in our season on propaganda because I don't think there's any aspect of Christian belief that seems more propagandistic than the notion of hell, especially the notion that, a lot of modern, Protestant Western Christians have, which is this, this concept of hell as a place of eternal conscious torment. We've discussed throughout the season how fear is often a very big motivator of of propaganda, and a very big tool of propaganda. And so it doesn't seem like there's there's anything that would instill more fear than being tortured for all of eternity.
Derek Kreider:At the same time, if a hell of eternal conscious torment is real or even a hell where, one is punished for some finite period of time and then annihilated, if that is true, then is it really propaganda to, to kind of purport this this belief that one thinks is true? It was great to be able to to talk with both Keith and Cody in this episode because, they come from different ends of the spectrum in terms of, you know, conservative, more orthodox, and, somebody, like Keith, who it would be more to the left of the spectrum. That hopefully has allowed us to avoid caricaturing, different beliefs because we had kind of representatives from from each area. And hopefully, that gives us a very well rounded discussion here. I think maybe more than than most of the other episodes that I've done and the interviews that I've done, it it felt like this was more of a dialogue, a continuing dialogue rather than coming down on some hard and fast conclusions.
Derek Kreider:Because there's just a lot of murkiness to, to the idea of propaganda and truth and and how one puts forth their beliefs in discussions. You know, it do the intentions of somebody matter in regard to the information that they're talking about? Does the truthfulness of something matter? If something is untrue, does that automatically make it propaganda? Or are intentions and motivations a part of what makes something propagandistic.
Derek Kreider:I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion, and hopefully, you do as well. I'm putting time stamps in the show notes so that you can jump around or go back to different sections that you find most beneficial. And I'm also going to put links in the show notes to, Cody and Keith's resources, their various books and websites and such. Alright? Without further ado, here it is.
Derek Kreider:The interview with Keith Giles and Cody Cook. Alright. So I, I asked you guys to to have a discussion tonight because, over the last year or so, I've really been thinking through through propaganda. And, one of the things that I've done throughout the season is to look at how the church has has inappropriately motivated people or used propaganda throughout history, ways that we've kind of been false prophets and and not true to the calling of Christ. Yep.
Derek Kreider:And, one of the things that obviously comes up when people talk about the church is going to be this this idea of hell, especially a lot of the modern conservative evangelical views of hell, where you're going to go to this fiery place of eternal torment. It seems like it's fear mongering, and it's something that's pushing people to make a decision out of inordinate fear.
Keith Giles:Mhmm.
Derek Kreider:So I wanna I wanna kinda talk about that tonight. And before I do, though, I'd love for you to introduce yourselves, and and then we can kind of jump in. Go first.
Keith Giles:Yeah. Am I going first? Okay. So my name is Keith Giles. I'm an author.
Keith Giles:I wrote it. I just finished writing a a 7 part series called the Jesus on series, kind of taking so I wrote one of the books I wrote in this series was Jesus Undefeated and it's specifically dealing with this topic about the sort of historically three different views of, hell and and so, yeah, that's that's kind of the main reason I think I was invited to this conversation. I also host a couple of podcasts, Heritikapiaour, Apostates Anonymous, 2nd Cup of Keith, and and I'm the co owner acquire publishing. So that just happened recently. So yeah.
Cody Cook:I can ask you about that because I saw that you were listed as a co owner. I didn't think that you were originally.
Keith Giles:No. That's that just happened in January. Yeah. Matthew, just to follow and myself are now the co owners of choir, and, it's a brand new company, technically. I mean, we we incorporated it under under the name choir, but it's under an l LLC.
Keith Giles:And, I'm putting out some really great stuff. We're super excited about, you know, new things we're doing in the future. Yeah. So, yeah, that's kind of a new thing.
Cody Cook:And Enquire kinda publishes sort of theologically progressive ish books. Was that that an accurate description of it?
Keith Giles:So and that's gonna shift a little bit. So, yes, choir has always been publishing Christian books by Christians on theology, on deconstruction, reconstruction themes, typically the kinds of books most Christian publishers won't publish because it's going to ask certain questions that they're not comfortable, asking. So that's gonna continue, but we're we're broadening out now. So we're actually publishing some post Christian authors, as well, and we're even we just launched our choir classics series. We're actually reprint reprinting, outer print or public domain books, like, we're we're publishing brothers Karamazov with a new forward by Brian Zahn, the prophet by Khaloka Braun with a forward by Paul Young.
Keith Giles:I I wrote a forward to, the kingdom of god is within you, by Tolstoy. So, you know, we're we're doing stuff like that and just to kinda bring what we feel like are some really great books that a lot of Christians probably have intended to read, but haven't gotten around to
Cody Cook:Yeah.
Keith Giles:To reintroduce those books with forwards by people they do recognize, you know, hoping to entice them. Like David Billy Hart wrote one for Alice in Wonderland. That's awesome. It's a great forward and, anyway, so stuff like that.
Cody Cook:Oh, that's cool.
Keith Giles:Thanks for a chance to let me pitch, talk about my my publishing company a little bit. Thank you.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. Cody?
Cody Cook:Yeah. So, I've been on before. So if somebody wants a little more information on me, they can always get back to listen to that one. But, I guess I'm here as, you know, my viewpoint is what you call conditionalism or annihilationism, so I I don't believe in eternal conscious torment either. But I think I'm I'm a bit to the right of Keith where I think Keith is kinda more into that sort of deconstruction, reconstruction mode.
Cody Cook:I'm somebody who, I I think I like semper reprimand better. The idea that, you know, we're we're sort of trying to stay within, the kind of the orthodox tradition, but also asking questions about what's been what's been useful, what's been helpful, what's been biblical, what's not been biblical. And so I'm, I'm I'm happy to maybe defend, my the people who believe in eternal conscious torment to some extent. That's not my position, and I'll and I'll and I'll argue with their, the correctness of their views and and whether it's biblical. But I also, I'm gonna be somebody who I think is I don't know exactly where Keith's gonna argue, but but I have a feeling he's at least gonna be a little the left of me on on say on this question of, of whether the idea of of the hell or eternal conscious torment counts as propaganda or not.
Cody Cook:So maybe we'll get into that and find out.
Keith Giles:Mhmm.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. No. I think that's a a great start, because I I think it kind of puts puts you both on display here. Cody, one of your books, talks a little bit about, biblical inerrancy and and that sort of thing. Right?
Derek Kreider:Yeah. So I I think you'd be you'd definitely be to the right, and and Keith would be to the left
Keith Giles:by by the way that I'm in that book.
Cody Cook:Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Keith was a Keith was a so I was arguing with people who who I saw sort of having, wanting to sort of unhitch the old testament from Jesus. And so Keith is one of the perspectives that I engage with, and he was, kind enough to, grant me an interview so I could kinda make sure that I was representing him correctly.
Cody Cook:I couldn't get a hold of, some of the other folks, Greg Boyd and Andy Stanley. So if I misrepresented them, that's their fault because they wouldn't grant me an interview. But Keith was willing to do that for me, so I really appreciate that.
Keith Giles:Yeah.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. So we're really trying to be accurate and not misrepresent people today. So we've we've got everybody, across the spectrum, hopefully.
Keith Giles:Mhmm.
Derek Kreider:So let's let's go ahead and jump right in. And I think what would be helpful, is to kind of start with just a a history and background of the idea of of hell so we can kind of have a picture of the landscape. For me, growing up, eternal conscious torment, it was it was a surprise to me when I started reading some of the early church fathers and and going back a bit. And I remember the first one was, when I was reading Nissa's on the soul and the resurrection, And I came across this passage, and I was like, man, he sounds like he's a universalist, but he can't be because he he was a Christian. Like and he was a, you know, a founding father, so he he couldn't believe that.
Derek Kreider:And it it of course, I I went and did some of the legwork, and it's hard to, like, pin pin people down to positions that, you know, we've sort of defined more in modernity. But it really does seem like he was a universalist, and that kind of shook me a bit, that there was it seemed to be diversity, in in the early church in regard to a position on hell. So I don't know, if you if either of you would speak. We can start with Keith since he is, the elder here and, the most experienced. So we'll just start with Keith.
Keith Giles:Yeah. Tell
Derek Kreider:us a little bit about the the the early church view on hell.
Keith Giles:Yeah. No. Thank you. The and that's a great way to start, Derek. I agree.
Keith Giles:So I kinda had a similar thing too. I was raised my whole life to believe in eternal conscious torment, believed it, taught it, preached it, as an ordained minister, and until, yeah, I kinda came across a few things like you did. The first one was a friend of mine, he has a radio program. His name is Steve Gregg, and and someone had called into this to his it's like a bible question program, and it asked something a question about one of the verses that that seems to be about eternal torment, and then he gave this response which blew my mind. And when I went and traced, you know, kind of chased it down and I realized that this was the truth, like this was right, as it was based on history, it blew totally, totally blew my mind and changed my perspective.
Keith Giles:It sent me on the course of investigating the historic Christian view of hell and the realization was that there is no one historic Christian view of hell, there are 3 and almost from the very beginning there have been 3. And so one of the, I think the reference that I got from him was he mentioned, there's a reference in a it's called the, what is it called? The I think it's the Herzog yeah. The new shop Herzog Christian Encyclopedia, which says, this is a quote, in the 1st 5 or 6 centuries of Christianity, there were 6 known theological schools, of which 4 of them in Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, Edessa, those were universalist schools. One of them in emphasis was conditional immortality and one of them in Rome taught endless punishment, and so that was a shock, like, woah, is that real?
Keith Giles:Like, yeah. So not only were there 3 views, 4 out of the 6 schools taught universalism and then then when you dig into that, well, who were these people? Like, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus, Athanasius, there are a lot of these church fathers who sat on some of the famous councils, like the Council of Nicaea who, you know, these are these are, like you said, church fathers who helped to to, help us understand the doctrine of the Trinity and they were universalists and so they weren't heretics, they were Christians. What I also thought was fascinating though was it seems that there was a lot of, like this this topic of, you know, what's your view on eternal conscious torment doesn't seem to have been a deal breaker for them. Because, again, like on some of these councils, they all they were all Christians.
Keith Giles:They all they were all peers. They all respected one another for the most part, and they weren't upset with the fact that I'm on a council with, you know, I believe the annihilation and this other guy, you know, who's leading, the council is a universalist and maybe the guy next to me believes in eternal conscious torment and they that was fine. You know what I mean? That wasn't a deal breaker for them, which I think is really the other the other way we know that they coexisted was the earliest creeds, like the Apostle's Creed and others, do not contain any references to eternal conscious torment or or anything like at all about one way or the other, annihilation or universalism, and I think it's because they recognize that they as Christians didn't all agree on that. So because those creeds were meant to say, well, here's what we do agree on, right?
Keith Giles:And so they put the things they did agree on, but they left out any views on hell and I think it's because they recognized, yeah, we don't all agree on this, but they didn't seem that upset about it, at least early on. And so I don't know if Cody agrees with that or not, but I mean, that's the the history and the research that I've done, and other sources that are kind of saying that, yeah, a whole lot of early church fathers were universalists. I think another bit of evidence in the in the negative or from the other side is like Augustine, and when Augustine comes to write about his view of of hell, which was eternal conscious torment, begins by saying, he says that indeed very many do not agree with me, they take the other view, the universalist view and in a moment of incredible grace and clarity, Augustine said that those Christians who disagree with him and those Christians who instead embraced universalism, did so, he said, quote, without doing violence to the scriptures. So he recognized that both from his perspective and from the universalist perspective and also from the annihilationist perspective, whichever of those three views Christians took, all three of those views were Christian views and they were all based on the same Bible, based on the same scriptures.
Keith Giles:It was just a difference of how they approach those scriptures and how they understood what they were reading. So I think that's helpful for, if listeners don't know that, and again, I'm just interested in we're talking about propaganda, you know, as well, propaganda is what I grew up with. Propaganda was being told this is the only Christian view, it's his real conscious torment, it's the orthodox historical Christian view and any other views are heresy. That is not only false, that's indoctrination. Education, true education would be what I just did to tell you that there were always 3 views, here's what they were, and to say then I could say, I preferred this one, but I would leave the listener the opportunity to make up their own mind about which of those 3 views they felt was more accurate.
Keith Giles:That to me is education. So indoctrination or propaganda would be only telling you one view and telling you that's the the only correct view and warning you with fear, you better not listen to those other people. Don't read those books. Don't don't go to those seminars. Don't let don't watch that YouTube video.
Keith Giles:Don't read that book because it's dangerous and it's heretical and it's, you know, it's demonic or whatever, and that's where the propaganda comes in to kind of, like, keep people from having in information that contradicts your information.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. Yeah. Certainly, silencing voices is is a huge tool that that unfortunately works pretty well.
Keith Giles:Yeah. It does.
Derek Kreider:Cody, do you have anything to to add to that?
Cody Cook:Yeah. I I I would push back a little bit, on a few points. In my reading of the early church fathers, I'd say that they were either vague. So they they had statements that would either support eternal conscious torment or annihilation, but probably not universalism. Or they were pro eternal conscious torment or less often, they're explicitly annihilationist or universalist.
Cody Cook:Yeah. He's right. Augustine mentions a sizable number of universalists in the church, but he does argue strongly against them. He does say that, their opinion is not they're they're not sort of arraying themselves against scripture, but he says that they're trying to soften everything that seems hard in scripture. So he's saying, you know, they're not they're not sort of saying I deny scripture.
Cody Cook:They're just sort of weakening it and reading it and and misreading it. It's kinda what how he how he sees it. The, the creeds do mention Jesus coming to judge, which I do think sort of at least implies eternal conscious torment or annihilation. I know that that's a little bit more complicated when you have, you know, purgatory and things like that in in in the mix. But, as far as, fathers who were explicitly universalist, there is Gregory of Nyssa who has a strong orthodox pedigree.
Cody Cook:As as Keith mentioned, he's somebody who is very influential for the creeds, and the councils, early early creeds and councils. Then there's, of course, Origen, who, was, I think, deeply loved in the early church. But, most pretty much all the orthodox thinkers seem to seem to see him as a bit off. So, like, Jerome, for example, plagiarizes Origen left and right. But even he sort of goes, yeah.
Cody Cook:I love origin. He's fantastic, but he's also kinda off. And and so, I I I I do agree with with Keith that there there, there are these sort of 3 views represented early on. I'm just not maybe quite as optimistic about how much universalism is represented by, sort of the main orthodox thinkers.
Keith Giles:Yeah. And I would just respond to the the the point, Cody made about references to the judgment. I think that's maybe a misunderstanding of what is meant by universalism. Like, universalism doesn't mean everybody, you know, buy you know, go straight to heaven, don't pass, don't pass the judgment seat, you know, go go straight into into paradise. The it's the opposite.
Keith Giles:Actually, patristic universalism, as as most early Christians taught it, was that everyone passes through the fire. So no one no one escapes the flame. The flames are a metaphor, right? The the how God's, God's God's a refining fire and a fuller's soap and so we shouldn't be afraid of soap. Soap doesn't kill anybody or destroy anybody, and so that that fire also is a metaphor for purification and refinement.
Keith Giles:So facing the judgment to a universalist would not be seen as, oh, well, if I have to face the judgment, that means I don't, universal universalism can't be true. It would say, no. That that statement proves actually we agree with that. Yes. Everyone will go through this judgment, through this fire, through this this process of transformation and refinement, regardless of who they are.
Keith Giles:And so, it's yeah. It's I wouldn't so I wouldn't I wouldn't see a reference in nearly creeds to a judgment as a as any sort of like a like, there's no reason to assume that means, eternal torment if it's not gonna say it means that or even annihilation because there's no there's no no clue one way or the other in that in that simple statement of judgment of what kind of judgment, what happens in the judgment. It just says there is a judgment.
Cody Cook:A quick question, Keith, just to clarify. For that kind of, purging, view of, universalism, would you do you see the purging as a kind of suffering? Is it painful in some way? Or or or would you of move away from that kind of understanding of it? Because the because I understand what you say about soap, but we also have fire.
Cody Cook:So but Yeah. They kinda communicate different things.
Keith Giles:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I totally agree.
Keith Giles:But I I I would I would urge everyone to see both of those as metaphors. Right? I don't think we should take literally that there's a giant lake of suds in heaven that will all be thrown into and washed vigorously, any more than we should take a literal lake of flame and fire that we're all gonna burn in somehow. Both of those are used as metaphors and, yes, I would concede that it seems that, when those metaphors are used and fire is used or judgment is used, there is the the implication of that it's uncomfortable, that it's not a good thing, that there is suffering involved in that process, but again, it's a suffering that's for our good. I mean, I would turn to Hebrews 12, which specifically says that God God disciplines those he loves and all of us are disciplined.
Keith Giles:So we all, that means we're all the children of God, we're we're all going through this, but the purpose of it, the reason why it says in Hebrews that God does this, is so that we can share in the holiness of God and that that process yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. And so, I, you know, I I would look at that as, yeah, it's probably not a pleasant thing, but it's, it's for a short time and it's for a specific purpose that in the end is for, for our good. It's so that we can share in the holiness of God.
Cody Cook:So would you say there's there's maybe an aspect of sort of threat even in the in the universe, the apostolic universalist viewpoint or the, early church's universalist patristic universalist viewpoint?
Keith Giles:That there's a what?
Cody Cook:There's sort of an aspect of threat or or or, to to
Keith Giles:to No. I don't see it as a threat. I mean, to me, a threat would be do this or else this will happen where, again, the universalist view is no matter what you do, you're gonna you're gonna go through this process, but the good news is that this process is for your good.
Cody Cook:Yeah.
Keith Giles:And it might not feel good at the time. Again, Hebrew says exactly that. No suffering feels good at at the moment, but but in the end, we're grateful for our loving parents or love loving father, who does discipline us because we recognize that it was for our good.
Cody Cook:But there is maybe a promise of of more suffering or pain for those who, don't get their act together in this life.
Keith Giles:Is that correct or not? Possibly is implied, but I don't know that it's automatic. I mean, I mean, it's probably implied in some way, yeah, that that it's better to go through a sanctification process in this life so that, right, it goes better with you. I mean, what so Paul uses that metaphor, that exact metaphor of, you know, that everyone will pass through the fire and, if he has good deeds, they'll be revealed again in this purifying fire metaphor as gold and silver and precious stones. So it's probably better for that guy, or that woman, that person, because, hey.
Keith Giles:There's something good there now. Hey. Look. It revealed some something good for for Christ and for the kingdom. But he says, even if someone passes through the fire and there's nothing, it all burns up and completely just poof, it's gone.
Keith Giles:It was nothing. It says, and still they will be saved, but only as those who pass through the fire. So again, I I I see that as, the promise that yeah. What whatever the outcome is, it's still gonna be in your good, at the end. The grace of god prevails.
Cody Cook:Yeah. So that's that's that's the the primary distinction universalist view has a a positive end in mind, which the other views don't necessarily for the lost.
Keith Giles:Right? So so I But there's
Cody Cook:still a promise of pain maybe.
Keith Giles:Yeah. The way I see it is in all three views involve this fire metaphor. The difference is what what is the purpose and nature of the fire? So in eternal conscious torment, the purpose of nature of the fire is just to torture you for eternity. That's it.
Keith Giles:In annihilationism or conditional immortality, the purpose of the fire is to burn you up and destroy you, if you if you're not righteous. And and universalism, the purpose and nature of the fire is to, you know, reveal the image of Christ in you and restore you, to some original innocence and goodness.
Cody Cook:Gotcha. Sorry, Derek. I wasn't trying to take over. I was just trying to clarify some definitions.
Derek Kreider:No. It it's good. I I think one of the things that helped me to be more sympathetic to the, universalist view was, because sometimes things just seem too easy, or, like, soft as as you mentioned, Cody, about, Augustine. But when I was reading George McDonald, he has a piece. I think it was called the consuming fire.
Keith Giles:Yes.
Derek Kreider:And so he's he basically says that, look. You know, we have this difficulty figuring out, well, how can God not be in hell in the ECT view? You know, how is there a hell, and how is God not in hell with people? But McDonald, he's like, look. Heaven and hell are are really the same place because everybody goes to be in the presence of God because God is is everywhere.
Derek Kreider:He says it's just the people who are redeemed are going to experience God differently than the people who aren't. And so the way that I imagined it was, you know, I was reading this, like, right around the time that, the the Thai soccer team was trapped in the cave for, like, 2 weeks. And, I was thinking, man, when when they come out and they're rescued and they come into the presence of the sun, like, to all those people waiting outside, that sun is warm. It's beautiful. It's awesome.
Derek Kreider:But to those Thai kids who are coming out, that sun is going to be abrasive. They're not going to be able to look at it. It's going to, I don't know, maybe burn their skin. I don't know how you react after 2 weeks living in a cave, but they're going to experience that sunlight different, than the people who are rescuing them. Nevertheless, they're going to be thankful that they're being rescued, and that sun is a good thing.
Derek Kreider:It's not a bad thing.
Keith Giles:Yeah. And
Derek Kreider:so I think I I don't currently hold a universalist position, but I really like McDonald's rendition of that.
Keith Giles:Yeah. CS Lewis, who was, of course, a friend of McDonald's, that says essentially the same thing in his in his novel, The Great Divorce. Right? That people, that's for some people, the the beautiful green grass are like like sharp blades that are cutting their skin, but the the other people are walking barefoot and they what's wrong with you? This is awesome.
Keith Giles:This is great. Right? And but they're both in the same in the same presence of god. There's some experience in a different way.
Cody Cook:I think Rob Bell said that, was it the hell was being at the party that's people it's like it's like it's like god's presence as a party that if you're if you're happy to be there, you enjoy it. If you're not happy to be there, it's not very fun.
Keith Giles:Right.
Cody Cook:And I remember thinking, man, I'm never gonna go to one of Rob Bell's parties. But, hell is being at the party. Alright. Sorry. Go on.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. So just, one one more quick question in regard to the history, and then we'll we'll dig into the propaganda. So we all recognize that there there seem to be a diversity of views. You know, we can we can discuss, figure out to what extent we think each view was held, but it seemed like there was relative respect for the various views that that we know exist on hell. But, obviously, at some point in history, it seems like there was a shift where there there became one dominant view.
Derek Kreider:Do you all know anything about the the history of of how that occurred or what influences kind of propelled ECT to the forefront and to exclusivity?
Keith Giles:So I have I have a theory because I don't think there's a specific sort of, like, it's not like, well, when Constantine showed up at this point in time, then he'd create something and boom from this point on, we see the shift that I know of, there's there's no, like, define defining decisive from this point forward, eternal conscious torment became the dominant view. But I think there's some clues in it, in history. So one of them is, and this goes to our top to our, subject about propaganda. In my book, Jesus undefeated, I came across, a kind of a disturbing, realization. So this is a book by Brian Edward Daly called Hope of the Early Church, and in this book, he mentions, he mentions, first of all, that Basil, Basil the great, was an admirer of Origen in his younger days, but in his later years, he became, quote, more severe in his expectations of the future and found the teaching of judgment valuable for the spiritual development of Christians.
Keith Giles:And then he says, like Basil, John Chrysostom saw eschatological themes as a crucial part of his preaching ministry. Chrysostom explains the need for such eternal punishment in his 15th homily on second Timothy, and this is a quote. We have all we have his sermons, so this is great, we can see what he preached on and so, in this sermon he preached, he says, quote, since the greater part of our virtuous from constraint rather than from choice, the principle of fear is of great advantage to them in eradicating their desires. Let us therefore listen to the threatenings of hellfire, that we may be benefited by the wholesome fear of it. So it seems that there were some church fathers who were very vocal and honest about the fact that they may or not personally necessarily believe in eternal conscious torment, but they saw it as something that was effective, Right?
Keith Giles:Like, hey. It would really it really works. It really motivates people using this fear the way Chrysostom says. Right? The benefits of fear and if we preach this fear, then we get, in their view, in their mind, more committed Christians, more because they're terrified and raise your hand if you want to burn in hell forever, that's this is where it led to.
Keith Giles:And so that that to me seems to be around the time it I would see it started to go in that direction, that there were church fathers who saw it as a useful tool, and so again, this is probably maybe the beginning of the propaganda phase. The other thing is going back to what I read a minute ago from, the, the the encyclopedia about those 6 schools. So again, 4 of those schools were, universalists, they were located in Antioch, Alexandria, Caesarea, and Edessa. The universalist school, so those are universalists. The one that was in Ephesus taught conditional immortality or annihilation and the one school that taught eternal conscious torment was located in Rome.
Keith Giles:And so, we can see that over time in church history, yes, around the time or post Constantine, that, as the more and more that Rome became became the center of Christian power and thought, in other words, if you are in Rome and you are part of Christendom at the time, they had the power now of the state to sort of impose their views, on the Christian world. And so I would say it's it's those two things. It's it's early Christians who saw it as advantageous to preach fear because they felt like there were benefits to preaching that fear, and eternal conscious torment fits the bill. But also, you know, you start off with 6 schools teaching different things, and one of them is in Rome. I could see where over time, those other schools kinda get shouted down and marginalized.
Keith Giles:Right? By the way, in in the Orthodox, like, the Eastern Orthodox Church, those teachings of universalism didn't fade away, they continued. Right? And so that's another thing we can look at and see that, there are Eastern Orthodox Christians who still firmly embrace Athanasius and Gregory of Nyssa and their views, and that's that's sort of the history that they lean back on of of tradition of teaching this, patristic universalism.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I found David Bentley hearts, that all shall be saved really, really insightful and, and helpful in in avoiding caricatures of, you know, they're just they're just soft and and, not intellectual.
Keith Giles:Right.
Derek Kreider:Cody, anything to add?
Cody Cook:Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know if if the if the pragmatic, arguments necessarily prove that people were were being disingenuous because I think we still use those pragmatic arguments today. You know, people who genuinely believe in ETC will ask me, well, you know, how can you get people saved if you're not telling them God's gonna torture them forever? So they still believe it, but they're they still they also rely on a pragmatic argument. And I'm I I always feel weird about kind of, you know, psychoanalyzing people and and and guessing kinda what people's motivations are.
Cody Cook:But, it is interesting, you know, some people will sort of blame Constantine or Augustine, but clearly the ETC goes back before then. I think you could at least explain the rise of the 3 views, by just reference to scripture because there are some passages that seem universalist and passages that seem annihilationists and some passages that seem like ETC. And the the way I kind of look at it is that, ETC is kind of like what you get when you literally translate a handful of proof text. And so that the the literal reading of a few proof texts seem very strongly to suggest something often will will impress upon the mind in a strong way. Whereas I think annihilationism kind of is almost like, is almost like more of a metanarrative.
Cody Cook:You kinda lean back and look at scripture and you see this, you know, what happens in the garden and you have death and you have the promise of life. And so that kinda fits a little bit with this big picture. And then I think universalism is often more like reading between the lines. You kind of look at this, the grace that God has and they sort of promise that, like, you read something like Jonah where god never says, you know, if you if you repent, I'll I'll spare you. But somehow that's what happens anyway.
Cody Cook:You know, what god actually says literally is not even really what he's going to do. God is god is even more gracious than he is, you know, wrathful or whatever. Right? So I think you can explain the rise of the 3 views with reference to scripture. Why does one become more popular?
Cody Cook:I wanna look more into the 6 schools things. I've heard that reference, but I I've also I I don't know how how how strong that how strong that is rooted in in history. But, when you read somebody like, I think Tertullian makes the argument that, you know, yes, of course, we have to be nonviolent. We have to love our enemies. But one day, we'll be comforted by the fact that we'll be able to hear their screams in hell.
Cody Cook:And so there may be a a I'm I'm not hopefully, I'm not getting too Freudian here, but I think that there there could be, at least for some people, certainly for Tertullian, this promise that, you know, yes, I have to behave well now and and and not get vengeance on man and knees, but but I can you know, one day, I'm really gonna enjoy hearing him burn. So that that kind of desire for vengeance might factor in. And I think also Keith's correct that there's, this desire to get converts, this desire to, keep people on the straight and narrow, and the the this, you know, this threat of eternal conscious torment seems like a a strong motivator.
Keith Giles:Yeah.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. So that would be a, you know, a good, point for us to to kind of move into propaganda more specifically, because when we're talking about changes and shifts and and that coming as a result of, you know, power, okay, there there's more centralization, more power. I I think that leads into kind of what we're we're discussing here because, Cody, before we started, you're like, I I kinda need a definite we need a working definition of propaganda to go with. And, you know, you'd think that after I did as many episodes as I I did that I it would be really easy to come up with a definition. And, you know, as I was thinking about it and going back through the season, I was like, I don't know if I ever actually just set out a concise definition because I do a whole lot of exploring what it is and how it works.
Derek Kreider:But to to kind of condense that into a simple definition is difficult. But, Cody, you you are really thorough, and you're really good at, kind of making things structured and work. So I like the definition that you came up with, and and we can kind of go with that. And it plays off of what, you know, what Keith was just saying with in regard to power. So the working definition that we have here is an effort by those with power to manipulate public sentiment to conform to an improved view in order to bring about desired ends.
Derek Kreider:Does that does that work for everybody?
Keith Giles:Yeah. That works for me. I think, and I think there was some discussion which I'm sure we're gonna get into in this converse I hope we do anyway in this conversation, because we we had a sort of thread going you guys mainly had a thread going before we jumped on the call, kind of trying to arrive at that definition, which I thought was very, very insightful and very helpful. But the difference too between so that's a good definition of, like, sort of the origins of propaganda. Right?
Keith Giles:But then there's also then a secondary consideration of once the propaganda has been created for that means and to for that end by those people who want to maintain power and control, there are always people, at sort of lower levels who may not even be aware of the propagandized nature of the of the statements that they are now because they honestly believe them. They genuinely take this as fact and truth and now then they're they're repeating it, right? And so those people become propagandists, who didn't, who may have been, may be oblivious to the propagandized nature of that information and so they're they're continuing to perpetuate that. And I would argue, you almost need those people for it to be effective. Right?
Keith Giles:Because I think if everyone, you know, if most of everyone knew, yeah, this is this is b s. We're just doing this. We're just saying this to maintain power. At some point, a few people are gonna go, I don't feel good about this. This isn't great.
Keith Giles:You know what I mean? Like, I see people really full of fear, really suffering over this message. I know there's nothing to be afraid of, but I'm the one making them really, you know, full of anxiety and fear. It wouldn't work. So you almost need for it to work and be successful.
Keith Giles:You need that layer of people who do genuinely believe it and who do think that what they're doing and saying is, is true and therefore must be repeated and must be emphasized.
Cody Cook:Yeah. And I was gonna say, I think it's it's also needs to be said that people who disseminate propaganda who create the propaganda rather, may also believe it to some extent. I think that they're probably being manipulative in a little bit, but but but they they could still sort of say, you know, yes. Of course, we need to invade Iraq, and here's the reason why. But they're still going to sort of engage in this, this kind of manipulative approach to try to getting people on their side that's not entirely like, well, let's have an open honest discussion about it and see what we think.
Cody Cook:Right? Yeah. And so I think that is at least part of it too that propaganda isn't necessarily a false statement, but it is, I think, something that's manipulative.
Keith Giles:So I I see what I I think that I I see what you're saying again, I think to a point, but I also think that there might so to the person might really believe it, but but there's also, I I think, I don't know if this is in is this necessary, but it seems like with most propaganda, there is an element of, it's not that the propaganda itself is necessarily true as much as it's a means to an end. What they believe in is the result, like invading Iraq.
Cody Cook:Mhmm.
Keith Giles:So the people that made up that story, right, are are the CIA and our government, right, our our intelligence community, they believed it was a good thing if if we invaded Iraq because they believed they were bad actors and they just and so they needed to come up with reasons to convince the American public why this was justified. So they knew that the the the reasons were were false. That was the propaganda.
Cody Cook:Yeah.
Keith Giles:But they believed in the outcome. They believed in, oh, but this needs to happen for whatever reason.
Cody Cook:Well, so an example that comes to my mind immediately because he was such an effective propagandist is Hitler. So is is Hitler a true believer, or not? And I think it's on one level, he probably was, but on the other level, there there's this manipulation of reality that that's take that's taking place that, you know, Hitler wasn't open to inquiry. You know, he wasn't like, well, let's have a talk about it and see if these these weird racial theories really hold up to scientific scrutiny.
Keith Giles:Yeah.
Cody Cook:Right?
Keith Giles:So there could be layers. I think I agree with you, co Cody. There could be layers to it as well because I think, hopefully, I don't get too far down, you know, chasing rabbits here, but, I remember watching a maybe about a year or so ago, there was a pretty good documentary on PBS about Donald Trump. And it was talking about how early on in his presidency, he personally could care less about abortion. Yeah.
Keith Giles:He didn't care about gay people getting married, you know, and he had said he had made statements to this effect even before he was president. Let him get married. He doesn't care. Right? Yeah.
Keith Giles:But there were people around him that convinced him that, no, we needed to have a strong message in this direction because it's gonna speak to our base and they're gonna, you know, get excited and vote for you. And so he was like, oh, okay. So so there is still so, yeah, I think there's certain parts, let's say, of, a political campaign that somebody might be a true believer, they really do believe, like, immigrants are the worst thing ever and they're gonna take your job and and impose Sharia law or whatever. So maybe maybe that part of it, they really do believe, but there's other parts of their of their statements or their propaganda that they really they they really don't believe, but they see it as, like, well, hey. But but my people believe it.
Keith Giles:People that follow me really want to hear me stand up and say these things. And if I do, I get more votes and my rallies get bigger and
Cody Cook:my
Keith Giles:points go up or whatever.
Cody Cook:Well, like you said earlier, the end is justifying the means. Right. It oh, I I think also the the the settlement of power is kind of important because to me, I think that sometimes we talk about people's, you know, motivations for believing in ETC that might not be entirely rooted in truth. Right? And I think that people have motivations for believing in universalism too sometimes that aren't entirely rooted in truth or or proper execution of scripture.
Cody Cook:It's something they want to believe. But I don't think that universalism can be wielded as a weapon in the same way that eternal conscious torment or even annihilation could, which I think could put it in, you know, if it's incorrect, especially. It could put it in the category of disinformation or falsehood or something that's not stated well, something that's not entirely believed for the right reasons, but it's still maybe not propaganda because no one really gains power over somebody else by by teaching by by saying that, eventually, everyone's going to be in heaven or something. Yeah.
Keith Giles:But the internal sorry. Sorry, Derek. But if if I was gonna put on my eternal conscious torment hat
Cody Cook:Mhmm.
Keith Giles:I would say because because if I really genuinely believed that God's plan was if you're not if you don't pray the prayer and you're not a Christian, and then you are going to burn in hell forever, then I would look at someone like me who is teaching universalism as a threat. I would see that this is evil. This is wrong. You are leading people astray. They are gonna burn in hell forever, and you're not telling them the truth and therefore, right, I I think I could I could see someone with a universalist message, if I was a general conscious torment believer, as a form of propaganda in the sense that it's a false message and that they would probably they would probably see it as, well, you're just co you're you're attracting followers to yourself.
Keith Giles:Sure. You're you're getting people to follow you and to believe your lie, buy your book or whatever. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think I think, you know, it can go both ways. I think you could depending on your perspective and your assumptions.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. So maybe that would be a a good place to kind of zoom in. I don't know where you all wanna go with it, but I think when when people discuss propaganda, a lot of times, they focus on the fear aspect, which is why I think ECT gets a lot of flack because when you're just scaring people, which is clearly manipulative. And and so perfect love casts out fear, and and that's just propaganda when you're trying to to scare people into the kingdom. And that's true.
Derek Kreider:Like, fear fear is a big component of a lot of propaganda. Government propaganda, abusers do the same thing, with victims, all that kind of stuff. But and when you get into the the corporate propaganda, they don't scare so much, but their their role is to incentivize in other ways. And so they shape your desires through through their sorts of propaganda. And they, you know, they just bombard you with things that get you to to desire certain things, and they kind of hold a carrot and stick out in front of you Yep.
Derek Kreider:Instead of having a stick behind you, hitting you. Right. And and I think people would view universalism as sort of that carrot and stick kind of thing. Like, well, we all want, you know, that nice nice, fluffy heaven where I don't really have to worry about evangelizing. I don't have to worry about people going to hell and and that nasty message.
Derek Kreider:Whereas with ECT, it's it's the fear aspect. Yet both of those can be propagandistic. So maybe, and and annihilation too. Right? The ECT and annihilation kinda go together because, even though you're not suffering forever on annihilationism, or conditional immortality.
Derek Kreider:Yes. Right. Ceasing to exist and some forms correct me if I'm wrong, Cody, but some forms would say that, there is suffering until you cease to exist.
Cody Cook:Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a lot of news. Yeah. Yep.
Cody Cook:A lot of forms of it.
Derek Kreider:So maybe you could talk about that. So we've got 2 kind of methods for for propaganda. You've got the incentivizing, and then you've got the through fear, and you've got incentivizing through desire. So maybe if you wanted to defend I know you've been defending ECT here for a little bit. Maybe you wanna defend your own views from those 2.
Cody Cook:Yeah. I mean, I guess I would say something similar about both. I mean, to me, the definition I gave was was kinda meant to sort of include all the elements that I think are what we are sort of thinking about when we talk about propaganda. We're not just talking about misinformation. I think on some level, we're talking about a power play.
Cody Cook:And, you know, there there can be a power play in in universalism as Keith mentioned, somebody trying to grow a following, for example, but I don't think it lends itself to it as much, which is not to say you have advertising that's kind of a power play. Right? It's not like, you know, it's it's it's, you know, buy this razor and you'll get the hot chicks. That's not like a it's not meant to, you know, frighten somebody, but it is still a power play. It's it's a way to try to get people to give you something, to to manipulate them.
Cody Cook:So, yeah, universalism can work in that way. I think what I'd say about I mean, I don't know that I'd say something unique about annihilation in this in this point because I think, you know, ETC is basically just in a similar boat as annihilation, but just more so, which is there is this threat, there is this danger. And, you know, is that is the fact that there's something to be afraid of, does that make it inherently a power play? And I would say no. I I think, you know, you imagine a a preacher who's trying to get his his his, his flock to listen to him, to obey him.
Cody Cook:He might use hell. Somebody who is an abuser, somebody who's I mean, who's sexually abusing someone young and will and will warn them with this threat, you know, well, you know, if you if you tell on me god's gonna get you whatever. Yeah. You you can imagine something like that, and and that's, like, a pretty obvious power play. And, you know, you you could also, you know, you could take out eternal conscious Torah back to slide in annihilation there.
Cody Cook:You know, you can you can imagine the 7th day Adventist pastor also trying to, get get his flock to be on his side, by threatening judgment of god in some other way. Right? So I I think just the real question is is is the motivation, is it a power play or is it not a power play? Because if someone is saying, I think this is true. I'm telling you what I believe, and here's my arguments for it, and I'd be happy to hear yours.
Cody Cook:You know, somebody who's making that kind of the case for neutral conscious torment or annihilationism, I don't think there's a propagandist in the sense that they are, creating propaganda. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if that that gets us anywhere or not, but that that's kinda how I think about it.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I I so a really quick analogy. I I think about with, with my kids, you know, if I tell them not to go on the street and they say why? And I say, well, because a car can hit you and that could hurt you or kill you. Yes.
Derek Kreider:There's an element of fear involved there, but, like, there there's a really big truth and reality that I'm exposing, and I guess you'd say intent goes a long way in regard to, to whether something's propaganda or not.
Keith Giles:Yeah. I think so. I I got as I as Cody was talking, I was trying to think, I mean, so I have the, the experience that, you know, I I used to believe for the most of my life, I believed in thought internal conscious torment. For probably about a year and a half, I was annihilationist, and I was convinced, oh, this is it. This makes sense.
Keith Giles:And then I became someone who embraced, progressive universalism, and and that's where I've landed now. But but because of that, I have taught and preached all three views. And so I was thinking, as Cody was talking, you know, was I was I spreading propaganda when I believed in oral conscious torment? Not knowingly, because I believed it. Right?
Keith Giles:I wouldn't I wouldn't look back and say those things that I said I said was, because, again, we're making a distinction between someone who knows it's not true, but I but I see value in it, so I'm gonna say it anyway. I mean, certainly, I saw there was a value because when I when I did our culture calls, after preaching a sermon that included, you know, some sort of illusion to eternal torment, hey. I got more people to come forward than what if I said it doesn't matter either way. But I, you know, but I but so when I preached all three of those things or I believed all three of those things, I wouldn't have thought I was, creating propaganda because I believed at the time, I believed it when I said it. But at the same time though, it doesn't change the fact that when I taught, especially in terminal conscious torment, I was unintentionally a propagandist, I was sharing things I thought was true, but things that I frankly had not really investigated for myself, I had not really looked to see very closely, what do I base these views on?
Keith Giles:I never did. I never ever went and examined the eternal conscious trauma view, like, okay, what are the scriptures that teach this? And what does it really say? And does it really say this? And how does that map to other scriptures?
Keith Giles:Like, I never did that until someone suggested to me that there were other views that were equally, you know, biblical. It was only then that I was willing to go and do that kind of scrutiny. And then when I did, I was like, oh, yeah. That these verses don't teach to all kinds of historical man. In fact, you know, that's never mentioned anywhere in the old testament at all and and the references that supposedly say this in the new testament are Jesus quoting old testament prophets, who again weren't talking about where anybody went after they died.
Keith Giles:But I never saw that until I was able to step away from a little bit.
Cody Cook:And I think that Oh, sorry.
Derek Kreider:That goes to the the question, I think, Cody raised when we were discussing, in Messenger, which is but if if you say that you were a propagandist at that point, or you are propagandizing, then not out of intent, but just because you were you were not informed correctly, you believe the wrong thing.
Keith Giles:Yeah.
Derek Kreider:Does that just mean, like, any false belief makes you a propagandist for that thing, or is there something that distinguishes, propaganda from just false belief?
Keith Giles:So that's to me, this is hard to split a hair on because if there is a false belief, it's a belief that is not based in fact and it's not true, and people are teaching it because they just don't know it isn't true. I mean, I don't see how that's any different than any other truth any any other statement that isn't true or belief that isn't true, whether it's political or theological or marketing message. You know what I mean? Like, drink this and your hair will grow back. Like, you could really believe it, but if it really doesn't work, well, then it's not true and you're you're sharing something that you may maybe you believe it's true, but it just isn't.
Keith Giles:Right? And so you can't there's no other way to look at it. For Mike, the way I can see it is that you are repeating something that you believe to be true, but it is not true. Then like it or not, you are participating in the propagandizing, you know, of that statement or of that belief, or of that product or whatever it happens to be.
Cody Cook:But but, Keith, maybe the distinction I think is that is really is whether it's a power play or not. Because I don't think that when you're preaching eternal conscious torment or annihilationism, you know, you know, at that point, I was trying to manipulate my congregation and try to get power over them. Once I became a universalist, then I wasn't I wasn't doing that anymore. And and I think to me, that's the dish difference between something's propagandist and it's not because, I mean, I I I've said and thought false, you know, things before. You know, you know, I've made false statements about, you know, I think that's that actor in this who's also in this other movie.
Cody Cook:Right? I mean, I wasn't a propagandist because I said something that was incorrect. But if if somehow I could use that to try to get power over somebody, then maybe that would be different. Right?
Keith Giles:So so let me let me just respond to that because it's a good point, but I would I would say that even though when I believed eternal conscious torment and I was preaching that and no, I I wouldn't say, you know, I could go in a time machine and interview myself. I wouldn't say, oh, I'm doing this so I can have power over people. So it doesn't change the fact that I did have power over people. That fear message did give me power over them and again, that wasn't my motivation, but it's just still true that because I preach that, the fear factor involved in that message did give me a certain influence of power over those people that if I preach something different, wouldn't. I wouldn't have the power over them.
Keith Giles:Right?
Cody Cook:But did did you benefit from because because that's something I've had you know, I know pastors I've had pastors who believed in ETC and annihilationism, and and I didn't I wasn't under the ETC, pastor's thumbs more than I was the annihilationist pastors. And so I think, you know, saying something from a position of power that's incorrect is different than using your power to try to get something from somebody.
Keith Giles:So I I would say, if you phrase it the way you just did about, like, did I did I get something from them? Did I personally benefit? Well, maybe not. Maybe maybe you could argue, well, those people stayed in my church and they continue to tithe and therefore, I kept making, you know, money every month. But I don't think it I don't I don't think I necessarily have to, like, benefit specifically, from it as much as, I was still manipulating those people to, behave a certain way and to agree with what I believed.
Keith Giles:And so, the outcome was that by preaching that fear, it kept people sort of in the group, you know what I mean? Part of the part of the club that agrees with this idea. So there so it it doesn't necessarily, I would say, have to be that, oh, I have to benefit in some way financially or some other way for it to be propaganda. I think it I think the benefits of of the teaching or this or or the idea or, you know, for propagating the idea can be nuanced. It can it can have other, you know, there are other outcomes that still in in the long run are better for me.
Cody Cook:May maybe there,
Derek Kreider:maybe there can be a a side analogy here. It kinda makes me think of, you know, the the Southern Baptist Convention, Rachel Denhollander, and, you know, the the sexual abuse and all the stuff that was kind of coming out there. And and then they get them on a hot mic that said, you know, where they said, well, we have to, you know, appease the base, basically, where they're like, well, we don't want this stuff to come out. And so okay. The the the top leaders are are, covering up information, not releasing things.
Derek Kreider:They're they're propagandists. Right? There's your, Cody, your intent and and power and all of that stuff. But if I'm a Southern Baptist missionary who benefits from the Southern Baptist Church being in good standing and and having members, or even if I'm if I'm a member and I have a long time Southern Baptist congregants, I don't wanna believe that there's abuse going on, and I will swallow what they tell me, what the leaders tell me, and I will defend them, and I will do all of these other things. And so even though I'm not in power and I'm not, you know, I I am not doing that necessarily to directly benefit.
Derek Kreider:Like, I don't get get money from that per se. Nevertheless, I there is benefit to it. And and you could extend this into, you know, patriotism and and the idea of American benevolence, and it's good for me to believe that our wars are good. Yep. Even though the government is the intentional propagandist, I benefit from lower oil prices from, you know, all of these other things from from having the solidarity of other people who are patriots like me.
Derek Kreider:So it's I think that's that's what in our discussion again on Facebook, that's what is is difficult, I think, for me, and it sounds like Keith a little bit here is that it really does seem hard to distinguish when something's propaganda versus just false belief. But your example of the, you know, getting an actor wrong, Like, it clearly seems like there's some there's some line somewhere.
Keith Giles:Yeah. That's what I was trying to say, Derek. Thank you. I think I think you did a good job of explaining it much better than I did. Yeah.
Keith Giles:Because, like, I may not personally benefit, but you you kind of trace the source of the propaganda up like you did to the top levels. I'm part of that organization, right, in some way. I identify myself in some way, whether that's Southern Baptist or the Republican party or whatever it happens to be. Right? I identify myself with them and so by participating in the propaganda, I'm protecting my own identity in some level too.
Keith Giles:I sleep better at night if I believe that we're the good guys and we're doing the right things for the right reasons, and I and and so my continuing to perpetuate propaganda that comes down to me from those people, maybe it doesn't benefit me in in some tangible way, but it does benefit in that it it maintains the power structure of the, of the organization that's perpetuating the propaganda for that reason, to increase their reach, to increase their stability, to to make it so that, you know, they continue to remain and have power and influence.
Cody Cook:Well, this is something we we we we're kinda touching on that, Derek had mentioned a little bit more in the chat, which is the the idea of the dupe who participates in his own propagandizing. Right? Because there's there's something that he gets from it. And, yeah, it's it's probably I mean, more often than not, just the belonging to the group, having somebody to sort of to hate her. I think there's oftentimes in propaganda the idea of an enemy, and I think that's pretty common.
Cody Cook:Yes. So yeah. You know, which I think is kind of a bigger question, which is, you know, what are our motivations for believing things? And, you know, the the the older I get, the more I I learned that generally speaking, our motivations for believing things, our motivation for believing things is not well, it's true. You know?
Cody Cook:There there's some other motivation that sort of gets us there, and then we sort of go back around the around the back way. And you say, okay. Well, here's my arguments for it. I've now that I believe it, you know, I'll give you my arguments for it. Right.
Cody Cook:And so, you know, there there's in that sense, you know, if humans were, you know, capable of thinking more critically, propaganda would not be quite so powerful because we'd ask those questions at the front end and not the back end. Mhmm.
Keith Giles:That's right. No. That's a that's a really great point too, Cody, because most of us don't believe, even if we believe correctly, most of us don't believe what we believe because we first, examined all possible. We did a massive amounts of research, and we looked at everything from every angle, we listened to all the different voices, and only then and only then we made up our minds. Right?
Keith Giles:So, and we will we sometimes like to think that that's true. We like to convince ourselves subconsciously that, oh, well, I've examined all the other views. Well, not, you know, not really. Not not objectively.
Cody Cook:Yeah.
Keith Giles:Usually, we change our minds for different reasons, and then like you said, we go back because in fact, that's exactly what I just said I I did. Right? I I believe the total conscious torment, then somebody gave me some information I didn't have before that made me go back, and now I'm now I'm rethinking. Now now I'm investigating. Right?
Keith Giles:Now I'm willing to go back and look and see, oh, woah. Maybe I'm wrong about this. And then I changed my mind. Right? It became annihilationist, and that lasted for a year and a half, and I thought, oh, now I'm right.
Keith Giles:But then if you did then something else happened and someone showed me something else, I'm like, oh, what? And then I go and read now I go and examine my annihilationism, and then I'm like, oh, okay. But, but most of us will either do a quick Google search and we're done. Oh, there you go. I got the answer.
Keith Giles:Okay. Now, now I know what to believe. You know, I mean, even when I was a Christian, when I did apologetics and stuff in college, you know, I would say, I would even tell myself that, oh, I've looked at all the other religions and and but the truth was I was a Christian because I was born and raised in a in a nation of of Christianity, right? Where my choices were a Baptist or Methodist or Episcopal or Lutheran. You know what I mean?
Keith Giles:I never once read any Vedas or any of the teachings of Buddha. I didn't attend, you know, a Jewish temple or anything like that or synagogue. So, you know what I mean? Like, so I I would tell myself, oh, I have investigated these other beliefs, but not truly.
Cody Cook:Yeah.
Keith Giles:So yeah, I think there's even that level too of recognizing that even the way we change our minds about things, is is not always, if we're honest, isn't always based completely and only on objective Yeah.
Cody Cook:Study. And and and to cut ourselves a little bit of slack, I mean, there are certain areas where I feel, equipped to to to do deep research and a lot of areas where I don't. And I think a lot of times social, you know, just sort of going along with everybody else says is a shortcut for a couple reasons. One, because we're finite, and we can't, you know, investigate every question to its fullness. You know?
Cody Cook:At some point, we have to we have to take some shortcuts. And, it's beneficial for us to take the shortcuts, to take the shortcut of just sort of believing what everybody else around us believes because then at least we fit in. And so, you know, the only time it really hurts us is when, you know, when reality sort of comes smack against us in the face. So, yeah, it's, I mean, I think about that a lot. I have a tendency to try to sort of, like, say, well, if I don't know, I'm gonna just sort of try to say I'm agnostic.
Cody Cook:Like, how to think this, but maybe this, but I'm not really sure. That's a practice I've tried to sort of inculcate.
Keith Giles:Yeah.
Cody Cook:Because, you know, the more I the more I think about it, I mean, the more I try to research things, the more I don't know. And I don't have time. I don't have time to research every question. Even these minute questions about, like, my political beliefs, my religious beliefs, there's a certain point I go, that one's not that important to me. So I'm kind of you know, I'll just sort of have some tentative views, but I'll I'll say I don't really know for sure.
Cody Cook:But but I think that those shortcuts that we take that we have to take are the reason why propaganda, I think, is partly so effective.
Keith Giles:Yeah. Yeah. I I would agree. I I guess what I would say is, the the the person who is who is creating the propaganda, is aware of that. That that that is how most people behave.
Keith Giles:And so they kinda depend on that. Right? They take advantage of
Derek Kreider:that. Yeah. This reminds me, a little bit if you guys haven't read any of Drew Johnson's work on epistemology. It's, this conversation is making it click a lot more for me because he he talks about, you know, how western western rationalism, a lot of times we think that, you know, we're very deductive and, we do we'd come to logical conclusions, but how so much is really based in authority and and, like, where we place our trust and authority. And, yeah, I think that would be that would be a great resource for you guys if if you're really interested in in pursuing that, like, how we know those things.
Keith Giles:Yeah. Yeah. I think I think it's true. Like, a lot of a lot of what we believe is inherited or borrowed, or like you said, it's just easier to go with pastor Bob. He's been a seminary.
Keith Giles:He's telling me he knows the answer. Well, I'll trust him. He knows more than I do.
Derek Kreider:So I I told you guys that I would keep it try to keep it around an hour. So I've got one more question, whittled it down. And, you know, things are a bit different when you have 2 people instead of 1. It it but I like it. I like the discussion, the back and forth.
Derek Kreider:It's great. So last question to kind of bring us back to hell. And one of the one of the questions that I had is, you know, obviously, we're talking about this because hell is is often used in our culture as as as part of the gospel message. You mentioned, Keith, using it for alter calls. Right?
Keith Giles:Yeah.
Derek Kreider:I mean, it's it's a core aspect of the gospel for for a lot of people because when Jesus saves you, what is he saving you from? He's saving you from the wrath of God is is how it's viewed in in our culture by and large. So, but, yeah, I I really I tried to think back through the gospels, you know, back through acts and everything and, you know, Peter's gospel message to the 5,000 and and all these other things. And, I mean, I might be missing something, but I I did not see hell as a prime component in the gospel message. And in fact and when you're when you're reading through Mark, especially, but all of the gospels, you know, this is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Derek Kreider:You know, the kingdom of God is at hand. It's all about the kingdom, the kingdom, the kingdom.
Keith Giles:Yes. I have
Derek Kreider:brought the kingdom, the kingdom is coming, and and Jesus tells you how to live that kingdom. So his salvation is the kingdom. Would you talk a little bit about hell as a you know, in the gospels and in in maybe the early church, but, hell as a component of the gospel, is it something that that should even be, or or is the kingdom the gospel, and and how is that different?
Keith Giles:Yeah. Well, I would agree with you, Derek. I I I kinda came to a similar realization much later in my Christian life, sadly. The recognition that the gospel that Jesus preached didn't include any sort of a shotgun wedding. You know, raise raise your hand if you don't wanna burn in hell forever.
Keith Giles:I see that hand, pray this prayer. Okay. You get out of hell. He he doesn't present the gospel that way. Like you said, the good news, the gospel is the kingdom of god is within you, the kingdom of god is at hand or near, you know, close enough to touch.
Keith Giles:You can experience the kingdom reality right now, not after your you know, you don't have to wait till after you're dead. So that's that aspect of it. And and then like you said, when you go to the book of Acts, when you see the sermons that are preached to something like 7 or 8 sermons preached in the book of Acts, none of them involve, again, the shotgun wedding that you believe this or else you're gonna suffer eternal torment. I mean, to me, again, one of the most shocking things about it too is, like, when Paul is in Rome and he's speaking to idol worshiping pagans and his message to them, is that there is a God that they don't know, that loves them, that is their father and they are his children and that this god loves them and blesses them and hopes that they would turn and know this god, and that this god is the one in whom they all live and move and have their be. Wow.
Keith Giles:That is where's the judgment? Where's the fear? Where's the repent or else? You know what I mean? That's amazing.
Keith Giles:You know what I mean? So, like so, yeah, you don't really see these these hell messages incorporated in the in preaching of the gospel and Paul, and he preaches the same gospel of the kingdom. There's, like, 8 different references where Paul says he preached the good news of the kingdom. So he's preaching the same thing Jesus is preaching. So, yeah, for me, I I that's the way I see it.
Keith Giles:I I don't believe I I think that the hell message, the threat of hell, as we've kind of talked about, I think it crept in, you know, in later centuries. It was seen as something by many, like, John Chrysostom and Basil the Great and some others who felt like, hey. This really works. This is, you know, if we use this fear, there's a benefit of fear. It gets people more motivated.
Keith Giles:It gets them to do what we want them to do, to behave the way we want them to behave. So I I I feel like that's the way this has kinda crept in. It's become now the gospel message, but it's not the original gospel message. It's not the way the gospel is communicated by Jesus or by Paul or Peter or any of the other apostles. So personally, I don't I don't think there should be.
Keith Giles:You know, we shouldn't be preaching this as part of the gospel. The gospel is good news. You know, it's this idea like Paul says that God was in Christ, not counting our sins against us, and he's reconciled the world to himself. That's great news. So, I personally would rather see those kinds of things like it.
Keith Giles:When the next time the guy takes the megaphone and the big signs and goes out to preach in the parking lot to people trying to go see a sports game or a concert or something, If they would just if they would just get their sermon from Paul in the book of acts, about about when he says to the the idol worshiping pagans, that would be refreshing. That'd be really great.
Derek Kreider:But when they when they say repent and believe and and you'll be saved, I guess, what like, what would you say they're being saved from?
Keith Giles:Oh, no. That's a great question. And and, yeah, that again, Cody probably disagrees with me. But, I
Cody Cook:was gonna say you have to buy Keith's book for the answer to that one.
Keith Giles:Thank you. Yes.
Cody Cook:Please stop that book.
Keith Giles:Jesus Unforsaken deals with that, probably more specifically because that's about penal substitution and answers that question about why did Jesus have to die and what's going on with that. Jesus Undefeated probably talks about it too. But I guess the the the short podcast version of the of that answer for me would be, when I go and look at the places where Jesus talks about being saved or people even ask the question, what must we do to be saved? You know, that's a good question. Saved from what?
Keith Giles:So I I look at it this way. This is what I this is what I believe. That Jesus showed up at a time in history when his people, the Jewish people, were looking for a Messiah, a violent Messiah who's going to lead an insurrection, storm the capital, kill Caesar, overthrow the Roman army, and establish the kingdom of God in a political sense, a Jewish kingdom, the the throne of David, you know, once again in Jerusalem. That's what they were expecting. That's that's the Messiah they were looking for.
Keith Giles:Jesus wasn't that kind of messiah. That's so he said, yes, I'm here to quote unquote save you, but I believe, and this is why we misunderstand what Jesus is saying, what he's talking about when he uses this apocalyptic hyperbole, when he talks about whether the destruction that's coming, whether, you know, the stars fall from the sky and the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched and the smoke of the torment rises forever and ever, he's quoting Old Testament prophets. When they were prophesying against Babylon or Edom or Egypt or even Jerusalem, in different cases. He they because those old testament prophets say the exact same things. They use the exact same phrases.
Keith Giles:So when Jesus is using those same phrases, to his people in Jerusalem, I believe what he's saying to them is, I am showing you another way. Isaiah says that when the Messiah shows up, he will show us his path and those who follow his path will decide to study war no more and to beat their swords into plowshares and that's what the Messiah who showed up, that was Jesus, that's what he preached. And so what he was saying was, guys, look, I can see you are all determined, you're on this path of violence, you want to overthrow the Roman government and he's saying, that path leads to destruction. Listen to my teaching, listen to what I'm saying to you, right? The Sermon on the Mount, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, go the extra mile, all those teachings are for his people in that time in history, that if they he's saying to them, if you will follow not the path you're on, that path is gonna lead you off the cliff into absolute annihilation and destruction and what what is called the end of the Jewish age, the end of the age.
Keith Giles:And by the way, that is where it led. They those that didn't the majority of them did not follow his message of peace, of enemy love, that was what his I believe he he was hoping that, you know, if they would listen to him, that that they would have could have avoided that fate, what happened in 80 70. But those are the warnings. That's what he's warning about. Not not what's gonna happen after they're dead, but a very real destruction, the same that came on Babylon and Edom and Egypt and Jerusalem the Old Testament, same language, same warnings, but now spoken to Jerusalem and and saying to them, if you keep going in this path, it's gonna lead to the destruction of the temple, the destruction of the priesthood, the end of the daily sacrifice, and that stuff once it's over, it's game over.
Keith Giles:So don't go that direction, follow what I'm teaching you and you can avoid this. This is being saved, you can you can avoid that destruction. A very practical real world destruction. I'm convinced most of the time, that's the kind of saving. That's the that's what that's what Jesus is talking about.
Keith Giles:That's what he's trying to save his people at that time from that that outcome. So I see it much more practical and and not so spiritual necessarily.
Cody Cook:Yeah. I I agree with, Keith that Jesus was preaching annihilation. No. I'll be yeah. I was it's probably time for me to plug one of my books.
Cody Cook:I I wrote a short essay. It's on Kindle. It's like a buck or something. The gospel of the resurrection. And so my perspective is, you know, I I like what Scott McKnight said that the gospel is the story of Israel resolved in the story of Jesus, which is why I I think we can't disconnect the OT from the New Testament.
Cody Cook:To me, as I read, you know, with the the apostolic preaching, Jesus' resurrection is integral to the gospel message because what the old testament tells us about sin leading to death, As Paul says, Romans 623, the wages of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. And so that the resurrection is important because it's a proclamation that, death is not the end, at least for some, for those who were in Christ. So, I mean, you could talk call that preaching hell. I mean, there there is a warning about the wages of about about sin paying death.
Cody Cook:I know that, you know, some folks like Greg Boyd kinda wanna minimize the the the fact that god is sort of an active agent in the punishing, which I think in the Bible does say in a number of places. But whether you take see a god asserted more passively letting us go that way or more actively, pushing it, There is, I think, a bad news, part of this, which is that the wages of sin is death, and the good news part of it is that the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Alright.
Derek Kreider:There was there was a lot of stuff that, that we just didn't get to. And most of it, we we kind of, talked about in a roundabout way instead of, addressing directly. Is there anything that I missed that you were like, I really wanted to say something about about that or get into that?
Cody Cook:Feel pretty good.
Derek Kreider:Okay.
Keith Giles:Yeah. No. I feel good about it. This is good. Enjoyed it.
Derek Kreider:Alright. Well, then thank you very much for, for doing this and taking, taking time out of your day. Is there anything else that that you all would like to plug?
Cody Cook:I think I'm good. I I mentioned that I mean, I I do write books. Keith mentioned that he's he's written some books as well as Jesus Un series, which all start with Jesus Un something. And, I I've got some, you know, books on some different topics, but I've been writing a little bit more on kinda Christian anarchism type stuff in in more recent, years. But, yeah, if if you put a link to my website or whatever, people will be able to find, find my stuff there.
Keith Giles:Yeah. I would say, you know, if you're curious about my crazy ideas and the things I talk and write about, I blog on Patheos. If you can find it just by going to Keith Giles.com, it'll redirect you to my blog. In addition to my books, which are on Amazon, I have a book called Solar Mysterium, celebrating the beautiful uncertainty of everything, and a follow-up book coming up later this year, to that series. And, yeah, I also teach some online courses on topics like this.
Keith Giles:Again, topics that are connected to my book. So, like, I I have a course on hell, Jesus undefeated. I have a course on the cross, the Jesus unforsaken, talks about penal substitution and all that. Second coming, the end times, all that stuff. So you can you can find information about that if you just go to my blog, heathouse.com, or you can just message me on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter.
Keith Giles:You can find me there too.
Derek Kreider:You guys are busy, and that makes me, especially honored that you would take time to, to have a discussion with me. So thank you all so much.
Keith Giles:Thanks, Derek.
Cody Cook:Thank you, Derek. Thanks, Keith. Thanks, Cody.
Derek Kreider:That's all for now. So peace, and because I'm a pacifist, when I say it, I mean it. This podcast is a part of the Kingdom Outpost Network. Please check out the links below to find other great podcasts and content related to nonviolence and Kingdom Living.
