(3) S1E3The Case for Christian Nonviolence: Historical Evidence
Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. This is our 3rd episode in our series Making a Positive Case for Christian Nonviolence. In the first episode I told you a little bit about my story and where I came from, and how uncovering some of my biases and presuppositions was was, vital for me to understand the case for non violence and to accept that. And then in the last episode, I talked a little bit about the Biblical framework, both Old Testament and New Testament, and how we can take a look at what we see of non violence throughout the Bible. Today, we are going to be talking about Church history, and we'll be quoting quite a few Church Fathers and getting into some of the context of the early Church.
Derek:So, before we get into that, I'd I want to lay out a little bit about why church history is so important. And, if you're a Protestant like I am, then you might not be very familiar with with church history. It's just a bunch of old dead guys, what does it really matter? Because what matters now is is what we believe. But that's not really the case, because in the early church you have people who are either directly speaking to apostles, like Polycarp and John, or you have people who who are directly speaking to people who directly spoke to the apostles.
Derek:I mean, you've got people who are are extremely close to the time of Christ and to the time of the apostles, and that is going to be very valuable for us to see what were they adhering to so close to the time of Christ. And, what we're gonna see today when we look at the Church history of, the position of non violence, we're going to see that this is really powerful for a number of reasons. And, the first reason is because, not only because of proximity, which we just talked about, but because the Church stands on non violence at least for the 1st 300 years, and we'll talk about that change a little bit later, but at least for the 1st 300 years is univocal. And, what what we mean by that is that pretty much everybody agreed on the position of non violence. You hardly ever find anybody who who disagrees, and if you do find any statement of disagreement, it's really kind of questionable, like, well, what did what did the author really mean there?
Derek:Or, there's some context that tends to illuminate, what they actually meant, and it doesn't mean that they're advocating violence. And there are only a handful of those sorts of quotes. So, I mean, we've got a case here for nonviolence, which is all for nonviolence. You don't really see anything against it. And that's a big deal because, especially in the early early church well, I guess I shouldn't say especially because even today I mean, when are Christians univocal about anything?
Derek:Never. And, in the early church, when they're kind of hashing these things out and trying to figure out what Orthodoxy is, you just don't see them agreeing on things. They don't agree on Hell, and whether that was eternal conscious torment or annihilation or what. They didn't agree on the Trinity for quite a while on on all the nuances of that. They didn't agree on all of the canonical books for quite some time, till they had to to call a meeting for that.
Derek:I mean, we've got we've got people who largely disagree on just about every issue you're gonna find disagreement. You don't find that with the case for nonviolence in the first 300 or so years of church history. The other reason, like I mentioned, is, is that, it's early, so proximity is a pretty big deal. And then, the the third reason we've got for the importance of church history is that there is a lot of power in the fact that this case for non violence is not really a formation of synthesis, but it's rather a formation by preservation. What do I mean by that?
Derek:Well, the Trinity was a formation by synthesis, and you have people who are piecing together a lot of different things, and they don't come right out of the gate expressing the trinity. They're expressing Jesus as God, but they I mean, they're just really they're not sure how to work all that, and especially with the Holy Spirit. I mean, it's it's just kinda confusing, and they're kind of synthesizing all of these separate pieces of information trying to figure out how they go together. And it takes them a while to be able to formulate something, to be able to recognize what's what's going on. With the case for nonviolence, we don't really see that come into play.
Derek:We don't have a synthesis where they have to kind of piece these things together and they're feeling things out. It's right out of the gates they are nonviolent, and they're not synthesizing anything because it's clear. This is what Jesus taught. So keeping all of those things in mind, as we hear some of the the church fathers, speak a little bit later. It's gonna be important to remember those things on on why the early Church is very important.
Derek:Another thing that we need to to address before we get into some of these quotes is that there are really 2 views on why violence is a problem. And, the first one's pretty basic and what you'd expect, and that is that life is not ours to take. In the Old Testament, when you do see killing, it any killing that is approved, that is legitimate tends to be approved by God, by the by the authors of the Old Testament. Joshua doesn't just go in and slaughter Canaanites. God says, look.
Derek:They're doing these wicked things. They're they're burning their children in the fires of Molech and listening to them scream. You need to do something about that, Joshua. Go take care of that. And so any killing that you do see in the Old Testament, it it is it is God's permission that validates it, on one view at least, and we'll talk about more views on the Old Testament later.
Derek:But it it is, God's directive that validates that. Life is not ours to take. And in the New Testament, God certainly says that vengeance is His, and Jesus not only tells us to love our enemies, but He shows us how to do it. And so, life is not ours to take. We don't do that.
Derek:And that's what the early church, many of the fathers will kind of show us here. The second thing is going to relate to, this idea of not doing the bidding of another kingdom. So, there are some quotes that I have which aren't directly tied to killing, they're more tied to government office. And there are a lot of reasons that a Christian might not want to be involved in Roman government office, ranging from the oaths that they would have to take, the feasts that they would have to go to, the idolatry, the maybe kissing the bust of Caesar, whatever it is that they had to do that dealt with with idols and oaths. But, certainly, an aspect of it as well was was killing.
Derek:And, and another aspect of it was doing the bidding of another kingdom. We are only servant to God, and His kingdom is not of this world. We are aliens. And what you're gonna see from some of these church fathers is that we, we don't kill because not only is that taking life, which is not ours to take, but it's also doing the bidding of another kingdom, and that's not our position either. So, when you see something that's related to government and not directly killing, don't think, well, that has nothing to do with non violence.
Derek:Because, on the second view, this, and we talked about it in the last episode, with Christ's kingdom not being of this world, that has a lot to do with the way that we we fight enemies here. Are we fighting against flesh and blood? Can our flesh and blood kingdom tell us what we're to do? Or do we have a different directive? Are we in Christ's kingdom, which is not of this world, and do we have different means at our disposal?
Derek:And, do we wait on God's vengeance? And, those are the two lines of lines of thought that you have to kind of keep in mind when you hear these quotes. Finally, one of the other things I love about the early Church quotes that we've got here coming up is that there's a huge diversity of sources. We've got sources that range from, like, ecumenical documents or, church documents. So, these are documents that are are from groups, not just individuals.
Derek:And then we've got, the church fathers. Right? Individuals, theologians. And then we've got enemy attestation, which is always a good one to to be able to see, because this isn't Christians propping up their own cause, this is what are people observing about Christians who hate Christians and aren't really going to want to throw any Christians a bone? They're not gonna wanna give them any compliments or anything.
Derek:So let's let's hop on in. I'm gonna start with with, what I think are some of the most powerful, examples. And the first one we're gonna go with is an ecumenical council. We're gonna look at canon 12 of the 325 Council of Nicaea. And this is important because an ecumenical council means that you've basically got all of the churches who are going to this council, which are a lot from all over the kingdom.
Derek:You've got all of these churches saying, Yeah, we put our stamp of approval on this, we agree to this. That's huge, because this isn't just one, one guy writing and you can excuse and say, Well, he was kinda kooky on this point. No. This is, this is the church that has said this. So here we go.
Derek:Canon 12 of the Council of Nicaea, year 325. As many as were called by grace and displayed the first zeal, having cast aside their military girdles, but afterwards returned like dogs to their own vomit, so that some spent money and by means of gifts regained their military stations, let these after they have passed the space of 3 years as hearers, be for 10 years prostrators. But in all these cases, it is necessary to examine well into their purpose and what their repentance appears to be. For as many as give evidence of their conversions by deeds, and not pretense, with fear and tears and perseverance and good works, when they have fulfilled their appointed time as hearers, may properly communicate in prayers, and after that the bishop may determine that, yet more favorably concerning them. But those who take the matter with indifference and who think the form of not entering the Church is sufficient for their conversion must fulfill the whole time.
Derek:Alright, so what's he saying? He's saying that, look, we've we've got a problem. If you're gonna cast aside this thing that you first accepted, and you're gonna return to the military, like, quote, dogs to their own vomit, that's a problem. You don't go to the military as a Christian. You don't do that.
Derek:And now you could say there are lots of reasons for that, but this is 325 and we've got a nation that has is now friendly to Christianity. And they're saying, no. We don't we don't do, we don't do the military. Now, this is the last you're really gonna see of of that kind of thing, because things in the early 300 started to change for for, a particular reason we'll get to. But with the Council of Nicaea here, I mean, you've got them saying that the military is not a good place to be.
Derek:The second document we've got here is the Apostolic Tradition. And, this was written around 200, so it's quite a bit earlier than the Council of Nicaea. And, as far as I know, it was not an ecumenical council, it's just a document of, you know, a larger, of a church, a group of people. One who is a gladiator or teaches gladiators or swordsmanship or military skills or weapons training should stop or be excluded. A soldier in the Sovereign's Army should not kill, or if he is ordered to kill, he should refuse.
Derek:If he stops, so be it. Otherwise, he should be excluded. Concerning those who wear red, or believers who become soldiers, or astrologers, or magicians, or such like, let them be excluded. Alright. So, what do we got here?
Derek:We see 2 things. The first one is that, people who wear red are supposed to be excluded, which is a generally agreed, is a reference to, governmental service, wearing red or purple sometimes references, governmental service, and so that's kind of forbidden here by the apostolic tradition. And, the second thing you're gonna notice is that, okay, he talks about gladiators and swordsmanship. Okay, well, we get that. We can understand not being involved in that.
Derek:But they also say, or military skills or weapons training should stop or be excluded, a soldier in the Sovereign's army should not kill. And this this should kind of remind you of, or we'll we'll come back to this when we talk about John the Baptist telling the centurions what to do, and, you know, not forbidding the centurions to remain in the army. And we see here that being in the army is not particularly forbidden, but what is forbidden is that if you're in the army, you better not kill. If you're ordered to kill, you better refuse. So, that is something to kind of tuck away and take note of.
Derek:Being an army was not forbidden, but killing was. Couple other more, larger church documents, documents that represent, groups rather than individuals, you can see the testament of our Lord, the Didache, the canons of Hippolytus Hippolytus. Sorry if I said that wrong. And we can we also have an inferential statement from the sonata of Arles. You can see those quotes on my website, which I'll link at the end, or I think all of those may be in, a book called The Early Church on Killing.
Derek:And, I will put a link to that book as well. So, that was ecumenical or larger church documents. Let's now talk about examples of converts. What do we see about people who were in the military, who, became Christians while in the military, or who were in the military and maybe during a time of peace and then a time of war came and they were asked to fight? Do we have any examples of that?
Derek:And, yes, we do. We have Marcellus the centurion, supposedly the mid to late 200, and he is said to have left the armies of Diocletian. And Diocletian was a pretty bad dude who did lots of, persecuting. And, there's a very intense persecution under him. So, Marcellus the centurion says, I serve Jesus Christ, the eternal King.
Derek:I will no longer serve your emperors. It is not right for a Christian to serve the armies of this world. Alright? Next one, Maximilian of Tabesa, around the same time as Marcellus. Why do you want to know my name?
Derek:It is not permitted to me to serve in the military since I am a Christian. I cannot serve in the military. I cannot do wrong. I am a Christian. I will not do it.
Derek:I cannot serve in the military. I will not serve. Cut off my head. I do not serve the world, but I do serve my God. 3rd quote from an example of a convert from the Army is a Martin of Tours.
Derek:A Martin came a bit later, mid to late 300, So, it would have been a lot more acceptable for him to be in the army. But I guess depending on on, his his convictions that may have carried over from pre Constantine and Augustine, or maybe just those kingdom teachings hadn't kinda made it around to him yet, the the kind of change in, change in leadership. But Martin says, hitherto, I have served you as a soldier. Allow me now to become a soldier to God. Let the man who is to serve you receive your donative.
Derek:I am a soldier of Christ. It is not permissible for me to fight. Alright. So we've got, we've got ecumenical councils, we've got larger church documents, and we've got examples of people coming out of the army. What else do we have?
Derek:Well, we've got probably the the bulk of what we have is from some of the major church fathers. So who do we have? Well, there are quite a lot here. And, again, you're gonna wanna go to to my website, or check out the book that I recommended to see all of these quotes. I am just picking out a a very small portion here.
Derek:The first person that we have is Lactantius, and he in particular has has a ton of good quotes, which, you need to go check out. But Lactantius says, for when God forbids us to kill, he not only prohibits us from open violence, which is not even allowed by the public laws, but He warns us against the commission of those beings which are esteemed lawful among men. Therefore, with regard to this precept of God, there ought to be no exception at all, but that it is always unlawful to put to death a man whom God willed to be a sacred animal. Now I believe Lactantius, as well as, some other individuals, would say literally, there are no exceptions to kill. You're assaulted, you don't kill.
Derek:You are in the army, you don't kill. It doesn't matter. Capital punishment. You shouldn't be an executioner. You do not kill.
Derek:We cannot put people to death. That is not what people of the kingdom of Christ do. That was Lactantius. Tertullian. I've got 2 quotes from him.
Derek:We'll start with the extended one. And, so I'm sorry. Lactantius was around between 250 and the early 300, and Tertullian is around 150 to the early 200. So, he's a bit earlier than Lactantius. But now, inquiry is made about this point, whether a believer may turn himself unto military service, and whether the military may be admitted unto the faith, even the rank and file, or each inferior grade to whom there is no necessity for taking part in sacrifices or capital punishments.
Derek:There's no agreement between the divine and the human sacrament, the standards of Christ and the standards of the devil, the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot be due to 2 masters, God and Caesar. And yet, Moses carried a rod, and Aaron wore a buckle, and John is girt with leather, and Joshua, the son of Nun, leads a line of march, and the people ward, if it pleases you to sport with a subject. But how will a Christian man war? Nay, how will he serve even in peace without a sword which the Lord has taken away?
Derek:For albeit soldiers had come unto John and had received the formula of their rule, albeit likewise a centurion had believed. Still, the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, unbelted every soldier, no dress is lawful among us if assigned to any unlawful action. So Tertullian there is essentially saying that, look, if you can get into the army and you don't have to do these sacrifices to idols and you don't have to do capital punishment, you know, is it, is it okay for us to be in in the armies? And he lists all of these people that, that were fighters throughout the Bible or, held weapons or even John the Baptist and dealing with a centurion. And he says, okay.
Derek:So we got all that, but you've got a bigger you've got a bigger problem on your hand if you're trying to argue violence. And that is the last person that we see and the clearest revelation of God, Jesus Christ, he tells Peter to sheathe that sword. And in doing that, he's telling us all to sheathe the sword. Because, you know, metaphorically, okay, well, Peter wasn't supposed to kill, but was that just a command for Peter? And maybe it was in one sense, but then Jesus Christ submits to death and does no violence even though he could have called 10,000 angels.
Derek:Right? So Tertullian is here saying, no. Look. Peter the command for Peter to see this word, that's for all of us. I don't care.
Derek:All these other examples you wanna give me, go ahead and give them. I give you Jesus. That trumps everything. What do you got? You don't have anything.
Derek:That's that's what what I think Turtullian is saying. So let's read a second quote from him. To begin with, the real ground of the military crown, I think we must first inquire whether warfare is proper at all for Christians. What sense is there in discussing the merely accidental, when that on which it rests is to be condemned? Do we believe it lawful for a human oath to be superadded to one divine, for a man to come under promise to another master after Christ?
Derek:Shall it be held lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword shall perish by the sword? And shall the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue it law? Indeed, if putting my strength to the question, I banish from us the military life. So, that one is one of the more clear, second lines of reasoning that we talked about. Right?
Derek:A lot of the other ones are saying, don't kill because that's not our right. It's not our life to take. Chatelain here is is arguing more from our, from kingship and our allegiance. I've got a quote from Ambrose here. And, something that I want to say about Ambrose is that, The thing about Ambrose is that he has some quotes that are are really good.
Derek:But the problem with him is that he he really wasn't a great person to to point out pacifism. Because he was all for, like, slaughtering the barbarians and, and just killing them. But what you're gonna see is that Ambrose does have a lot of interesting quotes that are very pacifistic. And you think, well, well, how could Ambrose be nonviolent but for violence? And I I am not an expert in the early church fathers, and a lot of these church fathers I mean, I haven't read their works.
Derek:It would take lifetimes to read all of their works, I'm sure. So, definitely, I would defer to somebody who's more of an expert on this. But it seems like Ambrose is willing to say certain things of his own people. Like, you know, I wouldn't do this to a Roman citizen. But to barbarians, yeah, I would.
Derek:Because by the time we get to Ambrose, he's in Christendom. He is in a state that is married to the church, or at least getting there. And so for him, you know, if you're in Christendom, and I'm gonna assume that you're a Christian because we're in this sacral society where we all go through the same rights, then okay. I'll treat you a particular way. But those people outside, they need to be conquered and brought into Christendom.
Derek:And so it seems like he has this double standard for, for his personal enemies or for enemies inside the church state and for enemies outside the church state. Nevertheless, I think that that these remnants of pacifism, even for his own people, are are very insightful and interesting that, you've got a guy who's not opposed to violence outside the walls, but who's opposed to inside. Because by the time we get to the 21st century, we don't care. We'll kill enemies wherever they are. We'll kill them if they come into our house, and we'll kill them if they're in another land.
Derek:And, so let's take a look at Ambrose. He is in the mid to late 300s. I've got 4 quotes I'll read from him since they're pretty short. I do not think that a Christian ought to save his own life by the death of another. Just as when he meets an armed robber, he cannot return his blows.
Derek:Lest in defending his life, he should stain his love toward his neighbor. Quote 2. The soldiers of Christ require neither arms nor spears of iron. 3rd quote, the servants of God do not rely for their protection on material defenses, but on the divine providence. Alright.
Derek:I was wrong. I only have 3 quotes. So anyway, that's Ambrose. Interesting quotes. But again, he's kind of got a a tainted, tainted view, I would say.
Derek:Alright. We've got Origen. Origen is an interesting guy. Late 100 to mid 200. And Origen says, if everyone to were to act the same as you Christians, the national government would soon be left utterly deserted and without any help, and affairs on Earth would soon pass into the hands of the most savage and wretched barbarians.
Derek:And that was Celsius, Celsus speaking. So Celsus was just saying that, you know, look, You Christians are no good for our government. You're all abandoning abandoning it. You're not doing anything. You wouldn't take part in it.
Derek:Like, if we let everything up to you, man, we'd have we'd have no government left. Well, how does how does, Origen respond? Origen says, you cannot demand military service of Christians any more than you can of priests. We do not go forth as soldiers with the emperor, even if he demands this. But we do fight for him by forming our own army, an army of faith through our prayers to God.
Derek:So Origen's saying, look, we do we do a lot of good for you guys. We might not do good in the way that you wish that we'd do good, but this is this is our job. And what I really love about this is, Origen is not saying, you're right, or he's not saying, you're wrong. We would go in government. We do a lot of good by trying to impose our will on you and change legislation.
Derek:He doesn't say that. He's like, yeah, you're right. You're right. We wouldn't go into the government. We wouldn't do all these sorts of things, because we serve this other master.
Derek:See? And we've got a different role, and you might not be able to see the importance of that role. And we're not gonna fight for you. We're not gonna take high positions of government, but, hey, we're gonna support you. And this is that idea of of being able to support the government, or or submit to it and pray for its good and seek the welfare of the city without having to taint your hands by doing evil yourself.
Derek:Another quote from Origen. The more pious a man is, the more effective he is in helping the emperors, more so than the soldiers who go out into the lines and kill all the enemy troops that they can. We who, by our prayers, destroy all demons which stir up wars, violate oaths, and disturb the peace are of more help to the emperors than those who seem to be doing the fighting. And though we do not become fellow soldiers with the emperor, even if he presses for this, yet we are fighting for him and composing a special army of piety through our intercession to God. So those were just a smattering of the early church fathers.
Derek:Definitely check out, some more, on my website. We've got quotes from Irenaeus, Clement, Athanasius, Hippolytus, Just a Martyr, and Cyprian. K. Final category. We've got enemy attestation.
Derek:What does the enemy say about what Christians are doing? We saw a little bit of a glimpse from, Celsius up, in Origen's quote. What do we see from some other people? So Marcus Aurelius, around 150. Aurelius says, I summoned those who among us go by the name of Christians.
Derek:And having made inquiry, I discovered a great number and vast host of them, and raged against them, which was by no means becoming. For afterwards, I learned their power, wherefore they began the battle, not by preparing weapons, nor arms, nor bugles, for such preparation is hateful to them on account of the god they bear about in their conscience. So Aurelius, I I mean, I guess you could interpret this a number of different ways, but it seems like he's saying, look, I was pretty ticked off at these Christians because I'm getting ready for battle here and they're not doing anything. They're not getting any weapons. They're not they're not doing things that an army should do.
Derek:They are just kinda sitting on their butts, and they've got this conscience thing that's getting in the way of me trying to win battles and fight people. And so that's his observation of Christianity. Okay. Marcus Minucius Felix, another enemy attestation around 200. And what's interesting about him is he actually ended up converting to Christianity over time.
Derek:But this quote is while he was an enemy. Their alliance consists in meeting at night with solemn rituals and inhuman revelries. They replace holy rites with inexplicable crimes. They despise temples as if they were tombs. They disparage the gods and ridicule our sacred rites.
Derek:They look down on our priests all although they are pitiable themselves. They despise titles of honor and the purple robe of high government office, though hardly able themselves to cover their nakedness. Just like a rank growth of weeds, the abominable haunts where this impious confederacy meets are multiplying all over the world due to the daily increase of immorality. Root and branch, it should all it should at all costs be exterminated and accursed. They recognize each other by secret signs and symbols.
Derek:They love one another before being acquainted, so to speak. Everywhere they practice a kind of religious cult of lust, calling one another brother and sister indiscriminately. Alright. From Marcus, we, from Felix, Marcus Felix, we see that, he doesn't really mention nonviolence per se, but he he does talk about the high the the purple robes of high office and talk making this observation that Christians are not engaging in politics, especially higher levels which would require coercive force. So, okay, we've got all of these quotes and just about all of them, except for maybe Ambrose, came from prior to 300.
Derek:And that's for a reason. And and, again, when you go to, go check out all of the quotes, most of the ones that I have are are prior to 300. And the reason for that is because when you get Constantine and his, his acceptance of Christianity and his his realization that he could really use Christianity as a power tool to be able to revamp the kingdom and and pull in on a lot of a lot of these individuals from this this religion that was becoming popular. He recognized the power of Christianity. Now whether he was a true Christian or not, I can't say.
Derek:But he certainly had some some major issues, and on top of that, he almost certainly had was using certain things for political advantage. So even if he did become a Christian, he was manipulating things, it seems. And after Constantine, you, you have Christians who begin to kind of side with him, Augustine and others. And that's kind of understandable because you had Christianity just come out of this huge persecution with lots of different emperors, but then especially, I think the most recent recent one was with Diocletian. And they're just tired, and this thought of being able to be in control and to have power and to not be persecuted, it was alluring.
Derek:And it was alluring to Constantine, who recognized a huge force he could use to to mobilize, as fighters, and it was alluring to Christians who were tired of being killed or always being under threat. And, what, what all these quotes help to show you is that you've got a univocal church who is saying that violence is not an option for any reason. Most people are saying that, or or I should say some people in the quotes are saying that. But most people are saying that the army, for sure, is is off limits and high government offices is off limits. And then all of a sudden, you've got this explosion of the acceptance of violence.
Derek:And it starts with Ambrose, like we see with Ambrose. It starts with something that's outside the walls. Okay, well, you know, if you're part of the emperor's army you know Romans 13. Right? Well, the emperor's a Christian, and so he can kill people.
Derek:And if you join up, you can kill people too. Outside the walls. Right? Not not people inside the walls because we're christened them inside the walls. And it's just a slippery slope from there.
Derek:And what what kind of shows me that this is this is really a contrivance that that comes later is that, you know, a lot of times, intelligent design people will point to, or different forms of creationists will point to the Cambrian explosion. You know, you've got this fossil record and you've got all of these just really, really simple creatures, and then all of a sudden, boom, you've got very complex creatures in the fossil record. And, you know, you've got different theories, like punctuated equilibrium and all these other things, but there just isn't really an adequate explanation, creationists would argue, other than something interjected here. Something something, intervened. And that's gotta be God, because there's no naturalistic explanation for why all of a sudden you have this this super complex structure that wasn't there before and all of a sudden is.
Derek:Well, I think we kind of have a Cambrian explosion of violence, and we see that happen around 300. We see it happen coincidentally or causally. I don't know. Around the time of Constantine and the marrying of the the church and the state, and all of the different motives that kind of come with that on on the side of the state as well as the side of the church. And you had this very simple, univocal, stance up until that point, and then all of a sudden you have all this complexity and, well, how to explain how a war is just and all these rationalizations and just war theory and all these kinds of things come on the scene.
Derek:And to me, an adequate explanation is not like with the trinity. Oh, they're synthesizing something and it's developing over time and it's it's unraveling and see now we realize this this thing that was kind of hidden, it was always there, but we just weren't quite sure how to nuance it. That's not what happens here with nonviolence becoming just war theory. We've got this Cambrian explosion. We've got this thing that just that just jumps.
Derek:And that's not explained by, progressive unraveling. That's explained by something more dramatic than that. And I think that's that's the marriage of the church and the state. So I think that is, that is about it for this episode. And, I, I really hope that you will have given church history a good a good year.
Derek:I hope that you'll go read all of the quotes because there are really a ton of good ones that I have not gotten to here. And quotes, these quotes from the church fathers really need to be read instead of heard because, you have to read them a number of times and kind of go through them and through them and through them to to really grasp what they're saying. Hopefully, I've I've picked up some of the most interesting ones and helped you to format that with an understanding of what their overall, framework was. And, in the next episode, I will be trying to take a look at, some personal ex not personal examples, but, individual examples of pacifism played out and what that looks like. So that's all for now.
Derek:Peace because I'm a pacifist. When I say it, I mean it.
