Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. We are continuing with a look at rebuttals to non violence. Starting in this episode, we are moving away more from the Biblical historical, rebuttals, and we're gonna take a look more at the, philosophical or logical and and emotional sorts of rebuttals. So rebuttals that aren't really grounded in in the Bible or or, historical evidence, but more just, maybe our our presuppositions or intuitions. So those those deeper seeded ideas in us.

Today, we wanna take a look at this question that is often posed to, the nonviolent, adherence, which is, if you hold a position of nonviolence, then what does that do to this this idea of patriotism? And specifically, doesn't that devalue the sacrifice of soldiers? Isn't that that, like, anti, anti soldier? Like, what do you think of people or or anti cop? Like, it isn't that, just devaluing the sacrifice that people make for us?

And before I get in into discussing this, I I do wanna note that, that I am surrounded by individuals who I I highly respect and value, who are associated with the military or, or the police force. My grandpa was was in the army. My mentor, through middle school and high school, somebody that I I greatly respect, was in the Air Force. Two of my closest friends from college are in the army. 1 of my, roommates and high school friends, roommate in college, was or is in the Air Force.

Our neighbor, when we're stateside, neighbor that we are the closest to is, in the police force. 1 of our our very close, friends is in the police, and love hanging out with them and and highly respect them. And it's just absolutely impossible to escape, from from our family or friends or people that we highly respect, in in society or or in our lives. It's just inescapable that that there are individuals who are in the the armed forces or in the police force. And so when I, take a position of nonviolence, I don't do it at all lightly, thinking, without an understanding that this position is going to inherently, in its ideology, essentially make some of the closest people in our lives, maybe feel judged and condemned.

So I I understand that, and and, that is very difficult to do. And that's why I hope, as as I discuss this, I can do it in a nonjudgmental way, in a way that that seeks discussion, in a way that that seeks, conviction. Certainly, I want to hopefully, hopefully, be able to speak into into other people's lives, with truth. And, hopefully, I do so humbly with an understanding that I'm not right about everything and that there is a lot of room for growth for me too. So please understand that I am not going to take any any of this lightly, but I'm sure that in this episode, there will be some things that people might take offense to, and I don't mean to say anything in in an offensive way.

Though, perhaps, some of the things I do say will be will be said, and will maybe bring conviction or judgment, in a particular sense. So I I hope that everybody is able to hear my heart out on this and and understand where I'm coming from. So let's go ahead and get to get to the first point. Does do I or does the position that I advocate, does that demean soldiers and police officers, and does that devalue their sacrifice? And I wanna say no.

And and I I want to actually say the opposite. And I wanna say that I think nonviolence actually elevates the sacrifice of soldiers. And I know this is gonna sound really stupid because you understand that I don't think somebody should be a a soldier in the first place. So how can how can my ideology elevate the sacrifice of the soldier? I I think maybe the the best example of this is if you go back to 1 of the first episodes, I believe episode 4, where we talked about logic and intuition.

I referenced a book called On Killing There. And in that book, the author, Grossman, goes into just the the terrible ways that killing somebody, ravages the minds of soldiers for the rest of their lives. This aspect of of killing somebody is a a just a very terrible burden to bear. And if you don't think that killing is problematic, if you think that it is justified or it can be justified, and that it's something that's actually a good to pursue at times, you might say, well, you know, it's the it's a last resort. But, you know, in some cases, it's a good thing.

In fact, to to not kill would be a bad thing. You you wouldn't be doing right for justice or for, the innocent. Then to have this idea that when a soldier kills somebody, there's some mental or emotional burden on them just doesn't really make much sense. Like, why would why would there be a burden? They're justified.

K? No problem. The position of nonviolence recognizes that this is a huge burden. It's not just some some mental mental block that's that's there because you just have to kind of get over these, Victorian ideals of, you know, of of morality. But it's there because it's a God given, conscience issue because killing is not good.

And so the the great, beautiful aspect of a soldier laying down their life isn't the only thing that I, as a nonviolent individual, can, can recognize in a soldier. I can recognize honor and bravery and and all of that, but I also recognize this other aspect, the sacrifice of choosing to kill, which I I don't think is a a good thing. But I recognize that people are are so tied to this to the use of violence as a means to bring justice and to protect the innocent, that they sacrifice this piece of them that is that is damaging. And so, in that sense, I see the sacrifice of soldiers as greater than, the greatest patriots see, because I recognize what all they are sacrificing and willing to sacrifice. If you want a good resource on this, I strongly recommend a book called Killing from the Inside Out.

Like On Killing, it it does get into, some testimonies of sort, but it's less focused on how soldiers get themselves to kill and more focused on what happens on the inside of soldiers. Like, what, what impact does killing have on them? And it takes a good historical look. It it goes a lot more into maybe, theology and, psychology, in in different aspects. It's just a a really good look that also questions some of these these just war ideas and, assumptions of morality.

And and I think the ultimate conclusion of it is extremely helpful, in that it says, you know, even if you think war is necessary, it doesn't mean that war isn't something that should be repented of. And he gives examples of people like Bonhoeffer who, you know, did sacrifice this moral ideal in order to, in order to do something that he thought he needed to do, even though he felt he'd need to repent of it. And that's been been kinda something that's been true throughout the ages of a lot of Christian thinkers that, you know, even in war up until the late eleventh century, they would even have to do penance for killing somebody in a just war. And so he goes into just this idea of, of what they call moral injury. You know, you're not only physically injured, but you can be morally injured.

And it's just a a very insightful book that I think would be helpful. It's a little bit, deep, but it's it's very good. And I I think after you read that book, and there are also some other books you can search on on Amazon or somewhere else that deal with moral injury. I think when you look at that and you recognize the injury that many soldiers go through, not from being physically wounded or having their lives put in danger, but from having killed or seen killing done or been a part of it in some way, I think your respect for for soldiers goes up and your understanding of their sacrifice goes up as well. Point number 2, while while I think there are plenty of of individuals out there who are in the armed forces or in the police force, who, who are seeking the welfare of the city, who do want to protect the innocent, who do want reconciliation, I nevertheless, I think they go about this the wrong way.

So the nonviolent position is going to say that, God's way is to sacrifice, but it's to sacrifice self. And so while I I pointed out in in, point 1 that I can recognize the great sacrifice of soldiers, And and, in fact, I think their sacrifice is even greater than than what most people recognize it to be. I think the issue is that soldiers and police officers, and and those who, are willing to use self defense and violence on other people, I think the problem is that those individuals don't go far enough in their sacrifice. And I I know that that's almost like a sacrilegious thing to say in our society that, you know, the life laid down by a soldier or a police officer isn't the the ultimate, the ultimate thing. But I think the nonviolent position also advocates the laying down of one's life, and we can see that in in a lot of the examples that that, were given in episode 5 of, you know, Martin Luther King Junior, Sophie Scholl, just, Desmond Doss, people who are willing to lay down their lives.

But, what they are not willing to do is sacrifice even their enemies. And the thing with with, soldiers and police officers is that they do wonderful things trying to protect people, and they have this this great, this great courage and honor, and it it is beautiful. And, I mean, I gotta admit, I like movies like, The Punisher or Saving Private Ryan or things where bad people get what what I feel they deserve and where good people are saved. I I wholeheartedly understand that. But the the logic of the kingdom is is different, and that is that we are willing to lay down our lives, and we are not willing to sacrifice others in order to accomplish what we think is good.

And, you know, you you could just say, well, you're not in in the military, and so you're you're that's just not, something that you would understand. And you can call me ignorant and whatever you wanna call me. But let me point you to somebody who was in the military and was the the manliest man as far as, you know, this this macho understanding of of, masculinity goes. And that'd be General Patton. And if you've ever seen the movie Patton, it's pretty awesome.

I mean, it's it's I love the movie as a pacifist, and, it it it's awesome. But the the best part of the movie, in my opinion, is the the opening where Patton has his speech. And it's a magnificent speech. It's so magnificent. I actually have it in my iTunes.

It's it's 1 of my, like, favorites, so I get to listen to it every now and then mixed in with some songs. And, Patton, in his speech, kinda makes my point for me where he says he makes this quote. He says, no dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country. And that's just that's just a beautiful quote that that summarizes my second point here.

When you are when you advocate for violence, your goal is not the laying down of your life. It's beautiful that you're willing to lay down your life, but your goal is to make some other dumb bastard die for your ideal rather than you dying for your ideal. If you die, that's kinda collateral. It's something that might come with the territory. But your goal is to really make somebody else die for your ideal.

And as a as a Christian, as a Christ follower, as somebody who thinks that the kingdom is not about making some other dumb bastard die, but about being the dumb bastard who dies myself, I just in that way, yeah, I would say that, nonviolence does minimize the self sacrifice of of, those who advocate violence because it's saying that their sacrifice isn't enough. Jesus Christ calls me to lay down my sense of control and my sense of what I can do to enemies and who I can make, sacrifice their lives for me. And it calls me to something far greater than that. So while the, while the sacrifice of the soldier is elevated, in some ways it's also minimized in comparison to the sacrifice that nonviolent individuals should be making. And that sort of brings us to to point number 3.

I've I've given you a way that nonviolence elevates the sacrifice of of soldiers. I've given you a way that nonviolence does minimize the sacrifice. For point number 3, I would just say that that nonviolence, you know, in essence, doesn't really devalue, and it it doesn't really elevate. But what it does is it appropriately values the sacrifice. And what it does is it it recognizes those attributes in soldiers and police officers and other individuals willing to lay down their lives in violent manner.

It recognizes the honorable and praiseworthy things about that, but it makes enemies worthy image bearers. And so nonviolence is going to end up, not not inflating the the sacrifice of soldiers, but it will recognize the good aspects of them. So let me give you a summary example of of kind of how I see it. And I I really can't think of a better example, and it's unfortunate because I understand that the example I give, as soon as I use some of the words I'm gonna use, people are going to be turned off to this and and feel like I'm making associations that I'm I'm not making or saying things demeaning things that I'm not saying. And I I don't at all want you to take me, in that manner, and I hope you can hear me out.

That this is just, an analogy, and and hopefully I explain it well. So we all recognize that we live in a very difficult world where people face tough decisions all the time. And in this difficult world, there are some families who face an an extremely tough decision. Do I let my family do I let my kids go hungry, or do I do something extreme to feed them? And you see this, 1 of the common ways that this plays out, especially if there is a a woman, or a teenager in the family, a teenage girl, is that there's this option for prostitution.

You see it in a lot of great movies, like, Les Mis is is a great example, where you see a mother prostituting yourself to provide. And when you see that, you know, a lot of times you use the word prostitute, and a lot of people think, oh, dirty, just terrible, nasty person. And, certainly, in Les Mis, you know, with diseases and poor lifestyle, just all those things that, that happen. Yeah. There is there is this dirty aspect to what prostitution often can lead to.

But when you watch that movie or see that play or read the book and and get these images in your head, at at least for me, it's hard for me to feel anything beyond pity. While I think prostitution is, is immoral and and it's not ever a good option, It is an understandable option, and it is something that just breaks my heart because I understand that you can get to a point where you feel like you have no other choice and where you make that choice out of love. And I I don't view that sort of prostitution as just this ugly, horrible, you're wicked sort of thing, even though I think it is objectively a sin. I think it's just sad and pitiable and horrible, and something that that I want to help rescue people out of. You know, as as a Christian, I can recognize the immorality of prostitution, yet I can empathize with the decision.

And a naturalist would have a lot harder time, rationalizing empathy because, you know, sex is just sex. And if that's how somebody wants to take care of their family and feels like they they need to to make money, then, you know, as long as they're good with it, so so what? But I, as a Christian, can recognize the extent of the weight that is borne by the prostitute. It's not just a sacrifice of of her body. It's a sacrifice of something more.

I think taking up a an occupation, like soldiering or policing is is like this example. I'd even though I believe in nonviolence, I don't vividly condemn the soldier or the police officer even though I've come to the conclusion that I think that is an immoral position, for somebody to hold. My overwhelming emotion is not judgmentalism, but it's it's sorrow and it's it's empathy. Because even more so than than the prostitution example, I understand how living in this evil world pushes people to resort to doing violence for self preservation, of of the preservation of the things that they love, of the preservation of of innocent people and the pursuit of justice. I understand that.

Like I said, I like those movies like The Punisher. And to be quite honest, in in the way that I've grown up, and my sense of justice and personal responsibility, my love for, for guns and and, and and violence. Like, if I had a gun and somebody came in to do harm to my family, I really think that I would draw the gun and shoot them, and I don't think I'd feel bad about it. I think I'd have to make myself feel bad about it, because I am just so I'm so indoctrinated, in in this world with with all of all of the books I've read, the videos I've watched, the the movies that, that endorse violence, the conversations I've had, the video games I've played, just all of these things, I don't think I'd hesitate to do violence if I had a weapon available to me and my family was threatened. And like I said, I would have to go through the logic of that person that I killed, it being an image bearer of God and going through through I would have to come to feel bad about doing such a thing.

And and that is not a good thing. That is a sad thing. But I say that because I want you to understand that that when I'm talking about the the decision that I think soldiers and police officers have to make, I am not at all saying that, that I condemn those people, and I'm just so angered by their by their compromise. I'm saying I fully understand that position, and I'm sad about it because we live in a world, even even a world where we believe that Christ reigns as king now. We live in a world where we feel the need to do that, to provide for ourselves and for our family.

We can't rest in in our our faith in Jesus Christ and his preservation of our soul and his his command to lay down our lives and to do no violence. We can't rest in that. And that is sad. That's like the prostitute who, who is just living in such a a messed up world that she feels like she has to do that to provide for her family. And that's how I feel about about violence.

I get it, but but it's sad. Again, I I really hope you hear me out in that example. And if, if anybody I know or any of my friends ever listened to this, I hope you understand what I'm saying, and, that I I don't say it at all from a position, of me being better, but it's something that, that I've been led to and, take seriously. And I know that that's a process, and we serve a gracious and loving God who is able to draw us all closer and closer to him throughout our lives. And that's gonna look different for for each of us.

As I as I, leave here in the next few minutes, I do wanna leave you with, with 2 resources that I think are just in interesting. The first one, directly related to to what we talked about here today, is It's from Stanley Hauerwas. And in this article, he talks about being a soldier. He talks about our American view of of what it means to sacrifice. And, he he discusses a little bit the, moral responsibility of killing.

It's just a really good article to kind of help break down some of our our ideas of this idea of the sacrifice of war. The other the other 1, which would is not nearly as as heady and is a lot more entertaining, in a kinda sad way, but there's a there's a documentary called The Kill Team. And I think that's it's a it's a very great example of this cost of of war on soldiers that goes beyond getting killed. In The Kill Team, the the movie is not about, the documentary is not about people getting killed, or or soldiers American soldiers sacrificing their lives. It's about the sacrifice that they make in becoming killers themselves.

And it's, it's a really good look into how individuals are shaped to be killers, just normal individuals. And the cost that that has on on their lives, on their their emotions, their mental state, and all of that. And, of course, that, that also leads into the, the book on killing, which I've referenced a number of times, which is always a a great book to kind of see the cost that that individuals face, for the rest of their lives after they've they've killed killed somebody. So in summary, what does a nonviolent position think about the sacrifice of soldiers? You know, we, I think, are are thankful that, I live in The United States, and I am thankful that I live here.

And I'm thankful that, that we have the freedoms that we do, but that doesn't mean that I'm happy with the means that we've used to obtain that at times. I respect people who who have, fought in wars, for those who fought in wars with, honorable, honorable intents and actions. And and I I can respect that, and I can understand the bravery and see the the positives of the the attributes that they've exhibited. But at the same time, I think there's there's a huge compromise with this willingness to sacrifice other people for your ideal and for your your comfort and for your freedoms. And I think the nonviolent position goes farther in asking you to withhold from sacrificing your enemies.

While I understand how people can feel the need to sacrifice enemies, I don't think that's what Christ calls us to. And so in the end, while I can respect the positive attributes of soldiers and police officers, I can't get on board with the the moral ethic because I think Christ calls us to something something higher than that. And, if I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I hope I didn't offend anybody. And if I'm right about that, I hope that, the Holy Spirit will work in your heart.

And if you are a soldier or in the police force or, a vigilante like the Punisher and going out and killing people, bad people, or if you're like Dexter, whatever, I hope that the Holy Spirit will be working on your heart and that he will draw you closer to him and allow you to be more and more the man or woman that he wants you to be, an example of the kingdom to those around you. That's all for now. So peace. There's no passages. Never I say it.