Derek: 00:27

Welcome back to the fourth wave podcast. In this episode, I had the opportunity to talk with we'll call him John Smith because that's what his email name is. John served in the special forces as a Green Beret. He was deployed in Afghanistan, and then he entered into the intelligence services at the DIA. I thought it was important to have John for an interview here in this section of the season for two main reasons.

Derek: 00:56

First of all, John knows the inner workings of the armed forces and the intelligence communities, and he could give real world examples of what goes on there as opposed to just hypothesizing, guessing, getting secondhand data. This is coming straight from the the horse's mouth. Second, I think having John on here provides credibility. You know, John is clearly not just an anti war pacifist with no patriotism or skin in the game. He's somebody who actually put their life on the line, when he was deployed, but who has now changed his mind.

Derek: 01:36

So this isn't just me talking from my armchair. This is somebody with experience talking. So what are some things that you should be listening out for in this episode that I think are important? Well, first of all, we reference a lot of different movies. I'll try to put all of the movies that we reference in the show notes along with maybe some links to their trailers.

Derek: 02:00

Though, I don't necessarily recommend that you watch all of the movies we reference because some of them could be pretty harsh. We've talked about Hollywood in this season, and how Hollywood often gets kickbacks from the government for changing scripts and painting the military in a good light. And John talks about a number of the films that were instrumental in in, the elevation of the military in his mind and kind of leading him to join the armed forces. Beyond Hollywood propaganda, we also dig into the more conspiratorial aspect when we get to John's experience in the intelligence community. Much of what John lays out from both the governmental perspective as well as the individual perspective is that actions are taken, beliefs formed, and truths accepted based oftentimes on comfort and convenience.

Derek: 02:53

Now this is what we so often find is true of conspiracies. It's Hannah Arendt's banality of evil or the ordinary men of the execution squads in Germany. What's more banal than a forty hour work week, a car and a mortgage payment and paying for kids sports teams? Now, the banal everyday necessities of life, the comfort, the home, the family provided for, those drive our actions and our beliefs. We don't want those things threatened.

Derek: 03:30

I think John gives some great specific examples of self propagandization and American exceptionalism in action, but it'll definitely be hard for newbies to accept what he says here. If you're jumping into the podcast at this point, like, in the season, I strongly recommend that you go back and listen to the rest of the season in order to build up the argument up to this point, because it's gonna be hard to just jump in here and accept what's being said. Finally, neither John nor I can separate our moral and political decisions from our Christianity. We are both devoted to the kingdom of God. We talk quite a bit about this kingdom towards the end of the episode.

Derek: 04:13

If the notion of the kingdom of God is new to you, even as a Christian, I mean, if you don't recognize that Jesus brought the kingdom as the gospels declare, and if you don't believe that that kingdom is in competition with the human kingdoms of this world, then you'll probably want to skip the ending of our discussion and check out season nine of this podcast on Christianity and government or Christian anarchism. What John and I talk about in regard to Christianity and politics won't make much sense divorced from a whole lot of background. So go check out season nine. Alright. Enough of me blabbering.

Derek: 04:49

Let's jump into the episode and hear from John Smith. Well, I'm I'm actually I was really excited to, to chat with you. Craig from the Bad Roman recommended chatting with you. And, you know, I've always been, I grew up, I think, kind of like you from the oppression that I get, grown up, like, infatuated with, the military, you know, watched, like, the the Memorial Day and Veterans Day specials on TBS, like dirt, the dirty dozen and grew up with, like, Hogan's heroes and all that kind of stuff. So I, you know, I I loved the military.

Derek: 05:29

And even right now, some of my best friends from college, were are still in the military. So, I don't know. There's just something about it that's that's really intriguing, but also as as you and I have both discussed something that's also very troubling. And so I wanna talk a little bit about that today, but I want, I'd love for you to give a little bit of your background first. Maybe talk a little bit about, who you are, where you've come from, and where you are now.

Ian: 06:00

Okay. Well, I mean, that's a that's a big so I guess I'm from Washington State and came from a I guess you'd have to say a military family considering both my grandfathers were in World War two. One fell was in the Canadian Navy, and the other one was in the US army. And then that my US grandfather was fought in Korea and Vietnam. So he hit he managed to hit all three of them, and then my dad was in Vietnam.

Ian: 06:32

And so I always found it intriguing, especially looking at the pictures. You know? Because you'd had all I had all the old black and white photos of my grandfather and and then, you know, just it's I guess it just permeates you. Especially growing up in the seventies and the eighties, you would have all those, you know, mash and all the TV shows and all the movies that really promoted, you know, a favorable view towards the military. So I always had that.

Ian: 07:00

And then, of course, I was involved in sports year round, and that's another big element of it. You know, you're always they always do the pledge of allegiance. And then depending on the size of the sport, they might play the national anthem. And so they're they're that's always wrapped around it. And then as your typical American, I certainly enjoyed July 4.

Ian: 07:23

And I don't know how much I ever thought about Memorial Day or anything like that in as regards military or veterans. It was just these things were just always present. They just always existed. And so I don't really know that I even you know, I didn't certainly didn't want to join the military. But when I finished heights or finished college so I went to college after high school, finished.

Ian: 07:52

It was utterly miserable. I could it was just the worst time ever being in college in the early nineties. I just wanted to do anything but be in college. And so after I got out of college, after I graduated, I worked for about a year and a half, and it was just so boring. I just the the entire thought of spending forty plus years doing just working every day, it was absolutely terrifying.

Ian: 08:22

And so there was a little gas station down the road that you could rent VHS tapes. I don't remember what they were, a buck a night or something like that. And I used to go down there, and I would rent, you know, three, four of these movies. And, of course, I grew up, you know, like, when we and and I guess I'm somewhat jumping around here, but when we forgot our first VCR, one of the first movies that we got was Rambo. And so that was what?

Ian: 08:47

Eighty four maybe? Eighty three, '80 '4, you know, back in the early days of the VCR. And so just always had an affinity for the military movies and enjoyed them. And I and I finally, after a year and a half graduating college, and I was working sixty to eighty hours a week just slogging away. I was like, man, there's gotta be something better than this.

Ian: 09:11

This is miserable. So I went down to the recruiter and signed up. I was like, you know, it can't be worse. At least I'm gonna get a travel. I'm gonna get to do fun things.

Ian: 09:21

And so for me, when I joined the army right then in the mid nineties, it was simply to run away from being an everyday guy who just clocked in and clocked out. I didn't want it. I I was just running from just doing that, and I wanted adventure. I wanted just fun. I wanted to enjoy life.

Ian: 09:43

And so the best thing I could think of, and that shows you probably how dumb I am, the closest or the most fun I could think of was, well, I'll join the army. And that's what I did. Yeah.

Derek: 09:54

Well, I mean Well,

Ian: 09:55

I guess

Derek: 09:57

No. That doesn't sound crazy

Ian: 09:58

to me

Derek: 09:58

because I I grew up in a, a a private school. And one of my favorite teachers was was a history teacher. And, you know, as part of his his world history, he would show us slides from when he was in Korea. You know, he chose actual slides of Korea and and the places that he'd been. And, I mean, he's he sold it.

Derek: 10:16

He wasn't a recruiter, but he's like, man, I worked for twenty years. I got out, have a pension, have a second life, a second job. I'm I'm living on the pension. He would take us to the, air force bases and play racquetball with us and, talk about how we could get, like, free flights and all kinds of things. And you're like, man, you got to see the world.

Derek: 10:36

You basically retire in twenty years. You've got great health care. You've got, you know, a second life. Like, what an amazing thing to do. See the world and and get paid and retire early.

Derek: 10:50

So I, yeah, I completely get that. Like, there's nothing there not to like so it seems.

Ian: 10:58

Well, yeah. So those things are all true. You know, I mean and even beyond that, I've and, I mean, I really a lot of my friends from the army, I'm still good friends with. And I've, you know, and I've been out now for, let's see here, fifteen years. It's something like that.

Ian: 11:18

Fourteen, fifteen years I've been out. And but most of my peers all have retired. I don't know that I have any buddies that are even still in because everybody, you know, is retired and out, and they're still, you know, some of my best friends. I traveled the world with them. I can call them up, and I know they would do they'd drop everything and do whatever they could to help me if I needed it.

Ian: 11:42

And I would still and still do the same thing for them. And so, I mean, it is it has all that adventure. It has everything you could imagine as far as that. The the only drawback is that they're gonna ship your butt to some third world country to either kill some peasant or oppress him in the most worthwhile manner that you can do for no reason whatsoever. Other well, I I I guess I'm jaded in saying for no reason.

Ian: 12:15

I mean, the CIA does need to make its drug money.

Derek: 12:19

Right. Yeah. I I really hope to get into to get into some of that, though. We'll try to ease in a little bit.

Ian: 12:26

Sure. I mean, if you take away the combat deployments, being in the military is like playing football for a living. It's just awesome. Yeah. I sure every single day of it.

Derek: 12:39

For for me, I I graduated in 02/2003 from high school. So for me, I was coming out right right when nine eleven fever was, you know, was there where it's like, you know, you've got all that patriotism and all that kind of stuff going. So there was that added element for my group. But then on top of that, I don't know what college prices were like in the nineties, but, you know, college prices were just insane when I was graduating, and they're they're just getting worse. And so the the thought of, hey, I can go ROTC four years.

Derek: 13:11

Like, that's my commitment and my college is paid. Okay. Now sign me up. Like, that that would be that would be great. And I I really, really thought about it for if nothing else, for the free college.

Ian: 13:25

Oh, sure. Well, it's even better than that if you if once you get in, you realize it's even better than that. Because while you're in on active duty, you can go to college for free if you have the time to do it. And so if you're on active duty now this was when I they might have changed the rules since I got out. I mean, I've been out a long time now.

Ian: 13:44

But when I was in, you could enroll in college and get it paid for for free while you were on duty. And then when you got out, you still had your GI bill that was untouched. And so there was all kinds of guys. Now I was in the infantry and special forces, so not a whole lot of my peers were able to take advantage of that just because we were always either in the field or deployed. But the other noncombat arms dudes, they all graduated with four year degrees without ever even having to touch their GI bill.

Ian: 14:15

I mean, it it it's a heck of a deal. You can't beat it. So as far as cost of college, I laugh at this all the time. And I might have the dollar figures somewhat skewed, but I went to Washington State, and it was approximately I can't remember exactly, but it was, like, $13,000 a year. And that was room and board and tuition.

Ian: 14:37

And so you could actually earn what the money I earned in the summer paid for my first semester each year, and then I I took out loans to pay for the next year, and I had a job on campus. And so paying for college, I graduated with only $12,000 of college debt, and that was mostly just your money.

Derek: 14:58

Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, so so there's a lot going to to kind of draw you in, in terms of the the benefits that it offers. And honestly, like since since Vietnam, there haven't really been any conflicts where you your statistical likelihood of being, a casualty of war is really that high, at least compared to the the people that we're fighting. Am I am I right about that?

Ian: 15:28

Oh, yeah. I was never concerned about that. I I would, you know, you would get banged up, just beat up on a daily basis in training and things like that, but I was never all that concerned that I was gonna get shot or blown up. And we had a couple of v bids go off near us, But the the type of people that the US army has been fighting the last thirty years for the most part are not known for aiming. You know?

Ian: 15:57

They're just praying and praying. And so there was really very little risk outside of an explosive or just some guy getting a lucky shot. I was never I was never afraid of getting shot.

Derek: 16:11

Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, even in Vietnam, Fifty Thousand some deaths over, like, a fifteen year period compared to, what, millions that we killed. Like, it's it just doesn't really compare generally.

Ian: 16:23

Yeah. Yeah. It's just the trauma of being there is what hems up most guys.

Derek: 16:30

Yeah. Yeah. That that is that is, terrible, the PTSD and and a lot of the the stuff coming out of on moral injury, you know, the the way that people are scarred, that doesn't even involve physical injury, but just from from being around the stuff. It's just it's terrible. Yeah.

Derek: 16:51

So I I wanna ease into, some of the things that you mentioned so far. You you brought up, watching films and that being kind of something that maybe wet your palate a little bit for the adventure that the army could give you. And in our, in our email conversation, one of the things that you said resonated with me a little bit too, because you said, you know, even the anti war films were were something that kind of got and maybe still get the juices flowing for you. So for example, for me, you know, one of the films that that resonates with me is Full Metal Jacket. It's a, it's a classic anti war yeah.

Derek: 17:29

It's it's classic r Arleigh Ermey. I mean, he's he's fantastic. And, yeah, he's he's in training and he's calling everyone maggots and all kinds of other names. And, you know, then one of the recruits, he snaps. And what goes on in my head, and this is supposed to be anti war.

Derek: 17:48

It's supposed to be kind of like, you know, look, look what war makes people do. But in my head, because of all these other movies that I'm watching and because of the, you know, American masculinity, I'm thinking, I'm not thinking that the war machine is horrible. I'm thinking to myself, you know, this this like this weak chump can't cut the tough military selection and training. I'm glad he got weeded out. And, you know, I'm sorry that he took people with him, but, you know, what a pansy.

Derek: 18:15

Get him out of there. Like, so it actually made me kind of despise the weakling. It didn't really make me anti war. So maybe you could talk a little bit about some of maybe some specific films and even some of the anti war films and how those, maybe created a certain vision for you that was alluring in regard to joining the army.

Ian: 18:37

Well, sure. Well, I think one of the biggest things that led into me just loving all those movies that I really I think they call them antiwar, but they know they're not. They they just they claim they're antiwar. And even the the producers, they all oh, yeah. This is supposed to be antiwar.

Ian: 18:55

But those movies are the the bread and butter of everybody that I was in with. They we all loved them. So let let's just click so, like, my dad would never talk about Vietnam until I came back from Afghanistan. Then he would talk about it, but he wouldn't talk about it because he had such a terrible time there. So then, you know, the movie The Deer Hunter comes out.

Ian: 19:15

What and I think what was that? It's 1979, I think, The Deer Hunter came out.

Derek: 19:20

And I'm not sure.

Ian: 19:21

I loved it. Have have you well, you're kinda young, aren't you? So you may not have seen the Deer. Have you seen the Deer Hunter?

Derek: 19:27

I I have not seen that. I've seen some of the older ones, like, the metal jacket, but I was I was only born in '85.

Ian: 19:34

Okay. Well, here's what you'd be write this name down. The Deer Hunter. It has a huge cast. It has a phenomenal cast.

Ian: 19:42

And this is an anti war movie for Vietnam. But here's the problem. If you're a guy like me and so that that movie comes out, you know, I'm just a let's see here. It came I wanna say it was '79. So I'm six, seven, eight years old.

Ian: 19:56

And I watched this as soon as it comes out on HBO probably two years later. And I'm like, this is amazing. This is this movie has all the answers my dad wouldn't give to me about what Vietnam was like. They're walking around in the jungle. They're having fun.

Ian: 20:13

They're best friends. You know, They're they're I was you know, of course, I was a little kid, but I'm not thinking they're drinking beer in in the, you know, the Red light District. I'm none of that stuff's resonating with me because I'm too young for it. But just the the challenges of it, you know, they get trapped and tortured and just the sheer misery that they go through with and then come out the other side. Now as a kid, I'm not it's not registering me just how much what they experienced affected them when they come back to The States.

Ian: 20:48

Now the movie really tried to show that, but as a kid, it didn't register on me that what they went through and how it ruined their lives and and all of those types of things. But as a kid watching it, it it answered all the questions for me of how challenging it was and that, you know, they went and did it. And so I felt it is the exact way as you're talking about the guy in full metal jacket. You know, if you really wanna cut the mustard, this is where you can do it. You wanna prove that you're tough.

Ian: 21:18

You know, you go and then, of course, there were Green Berets in the movie. You know, go be a Green Beret and see if you can cut the mustard, deal with getting tortured and all this stuff. And so for me, that movie was probably one of the first of the anti war movies that I saw and just loved it. And then, you know, shortly after that came Full Metal Jacket and Platoon. Those two came out, I think, within a year of each other.

Ian: 21:44

Same exact thing. Look at how challenging this is. You've got, you know, Platoon. You've got one rich kid who joins because he wants to, and everybody else was drafted. And so all the drafted guys are like, what am I doing here?

Ian: 21:59

And the rich kids like, well, I chose to be here. And then you see the war through his eyes, and and you're just like, man, look at that. They're they're digging holes. They're burning poop. They're getting in fights.

Ian: 22:11

They're staying up all night. They're partying. They're hanging out. They're best friends. What's not to like about it?

Ian: 22:17

Now, of course, you know, you're not focused on the attention of the fratricide and any of that, but just the challenge of it is what appealed to me. And then the same thing with Full Metal Jacket, and then you get out with Rambo. So Rambo is theoretically filmed in Washington. It was filmed in up in British Columbia, but I was from Washington. So this film is, you know, supposedly done right there in in my near my hometown.

Ian: 22:45

And so we're watching that, and the scenery is all very similar because Canada and Washington are very close. And, again, this is like the baddest mold doing it. It has the greatest one liners. Have you seen the first blood?

Derek: 23:00

I have not.

Ian: 23:02

Oh my goodness. Okay. Write down first blood.

Derek: 23:07

Yeah. So most of the most of the movies most of the movies that I have seen so I have seen Full Metal Jacket, but, most of the movies that I saw were, like, the World War two era movies. Those were kind of

Ian: 23:18

Okay. Of

Derek: 23:19

mine. Because, you know, when I was growing up, like, TBS would replay would would play all of those movies. I think they because they were a little bit less less gruesome, and they were also older. So they had the rights, and it wasn't as expensive for them to run it. So I was kind of in in that mode.

Ian: 23:35

Oh, yeah. Well, I grew up with all those World War two movies, both theaters, the Pacific and the Europe. I mean, I probably watched every single one that ever got made. Oh, well, that brings to mind right there, Robin Moore's The Green Berets movie. You know, that movie right there can be attributed, and that came out in the seventies, I think, or maybe it came out in the late sixties.

Ian: 23:58

No. I think that came out in the late sixties. And that movie can be attributed to all kinds of young men wanting to go join the army and become Green Berets just because of how, you know, how it showed all the extra training and and just the different lifestyle and things that Green Berets did compared to the conventional army. So those were those movies that we just talked about right there were all formative for me because and I watched them all constantly because they're just you know, there's great cinematography, great actors, and they're really good. And then there's another there's another was it Charlie Sheen movie from the from the late eighties.

Ian: 24:41

It's not very good. I can't think of what it's called. But, you know, those movies for me were not anti war because they challenged me as a teenager to want to see if I could cut the mustard and if I could hack it the way my grandfathers, my dad, and so that was it for me. I just wanted to see if I could hack it. And then the benefit of it, you know, because I'm an American, the benefit of it is it's like you get a license to kill.

Ian: 25:11

Nobody cares if you're you know, as as portrayed in movies, nobody cares what you do. And so it's entirely different. You're like in another world. And so nobody you, like, have a free ticket to do anything you want. And so I that would that's it for me.

Ian: 25:28

I mean, I hope I answered your question there. But No. No.

Derek: 25:30

You did. Yeah. I used to pretend

Ian: 25:32

double time. Haven't seen those movies.

Derek: 25:34

No. Sorry. I I have some homework to do. But, you know, as you were as you were talking, one of the things that that kind of, stuck out to me is I I don't know all of those movies. I know Rambo, but it seems like even in a lot of the anti war films, okay, there's there's a lot of death.

Derek: 25:53

Like the some of their friends die, important people, some of the protagonists die. But in a lot of the movies that I'm familiar with, your main protagonist and the people that you really, really care about don't die. Like Saving Private Ryan even. Okay. Yes.

Derek: 26:08

There are death of some significant people, but the person that you really, really care about doesn't die. And so, well, I see this in my kids all the time. They're not watching those kinds of movies, but they're when we're watching something that's a little bit scarier for them, they're like, well, we know the good guy's gonna win. And so it's like, okay. Well, you watch those a lot of those anti war films.

Derek: 26:28

And sure, it shows you all this this pain and stuff, but you know that the good guy's gonna win. And because you're an American and because you're a good guy, you know that you're gonna go over there and you have this idea that, well, you're gonna prevail. Is is that accurate?

Ian: 26:45

Oh, yeah. No doubt about it. Well, because, I mean, when you look at it, the amount the equipment disparity this is really what turned me off on the whole idea of it, was I was the equipment disparity and the training disparity. I mean, look at I mean, what do you think of when you think of Afghani? You know, you're not thinking of a conventional army and you're not thinking of, you know, huge swaths of training.

Ian: 27:11

And so but then, you know, coming from US military side, spend all that time training top of the line equipment. And then I got over there, and I see exactly who the supposed and I, you know, put quotation marks around it, enemy is. And I'm like, these are dirt farmers. I got a k 40 a rusty old a k 47 and might have one or two magazines, period. That's it.

Ian: 27:40

They got they don't even have body armor. They don't have side arms. They just have that limited amount of stuff. And so it was it just blew me away to get over there and think. So I was my team's senior engineer, so I was signed for all our equipment.

Ian: 28:01

So I got a million dollars worth of equipment that I'm signed for that are just one twelve man special forces team has. And we're go and, I mean, you're really gonna throw a dude that has nothing but a pair of flip flops and if he's lucky, 30 rounds? It's I I just was like, this is a waste. Why are we here? This is not a war.

Ian: 28:25

We're not and that was what opened my eyes. That one deployment to Afghanistan showed me the folly of all of my lifetime of thought.

Derek: 28:37

Yeah. We'll, we'll talk a little bit more about that later too because I wanna kind of dig some of that open from, some of our our earlier conversation. But before we get into that, because I I think you have a well rounded experience because okay. You, you know, you were deployed, you're special forces, but then you also told me that you you have another kind of angle that you're coming at it, from, which is, the the intelligence side. So you said that you spent, I think, seven years in the DIA being what you called an intel weenie.

Derek: 29:12

Would you describe that transition, from from special forces to intel and, you know, what that was like?

Ian: 29:22

Sure. Well, I kinda went kicking and screaming. So when I was getting out I when I was getting out of the army, I was trying to make a clean break of federal employment. Problem was I it was o seven, and everything crashed in the economy. And so I had I was a financial adviser, and I was the last guy hired at this boutique firm that I was working at.

Ian: 29:55

And so I had turned my back on joining the military or, you know, I had considered, you know, FBI secret service, all that type of stuff in the federal government. I was like, no. No. I'm just gonna be a regular civilian now. Well, eleven months later, the economy's in the tank.

Ian: 30:11

I'm the last guy hired and the first guy fired. And so I get canned, and I can't hold it against my employer. The economy was in the tank. The the stock market had been just rocketing down, and I'm not bringing in any money. And so they let me go.

Ian: 30:28

And so now I've got a wife and a kid, a mortgage. I got all these skills that don't really translate to the civilian world well. And so I found out, you know, there's this website that you can get hired on with all the federal agencies. And so I I submit an application, and and I'm talking with the CIA first. Now because of being in special forces, I understood the intelligence cycle.

Ian: 30:54

And so when I was going through their process, it was very easy. And I wasn't having any problems. And I was I can't I think I was in the third stage of going through their vetting process and getting hired. I wanted to be in the clandestine service and try you know, pretend that I would have a normal job, but be working for the CIA and go wherever they need you know, wherever in the world. The problem was I was still relatively young, and we had a kid.

Ian: 31:23

I was like, well, I don't wanna end up doing that and be deployed again all over the world. I gotta be a dad and a husband. And so the but I was still going forward with the CIA even though I had these reservations. And they they tell you that hey. They give you a list of books, and they probably still do.

Ian: 31:43

It is about 20 books. And they say, read three of these. And so I I ordered three of those books, and I read them. By the time I had finished the third book, I was like, I want absolutely nothing to do with the CIA. I have no interest in deploying and overthrowing governments.

Ian: 32:01

I have no interest in running drugs. I have no interest in assassinating and killing people and being involved in any of this clandestine stuff.

Derek: 32:08

Do you have, that list of books? I'd be really interested to know which books they, they recommended.

Ian: 32:15

Oh, I'm sure it's on their website.

Derek: 32:17

Oh, okay.

Ian: 32:18

I'll have to website and yeah.

Derek: 32:20

I I just didn't realize they

Ian: 32:22

were the recommended reading.

Derek: 32:23

I didn't realize they were that explicit about what they do. They usually try to kind of, you know, gloss over that.

Ian: 32:30

Oh, no. They're explicit. Yeah. No. They point you to their, you know, former officers and the books that they've written.

Ian: 32:36

So those are the books that I read where their former officers Okay. I can't remember his name. The one the one guy who they based that movie, what is it, something in The Middle East. Robert Baer. I read two of his books.

Ian: 32:50

He was two of the ones, and he's very explicit about, you know, what he did in his time in the CIA. And so I I withdrew from consideration at that point. And so I I took and this is the beauty of when you so if you have been employed by the federal government and you're not a nug, you know, you really understand the lingo and how to get hired. And so I had I purchased a couple of books on, you know, how to how to make a federal resume, how to get hired, how to pass these tests. And so I go and I take my f b or I go to my f to the FBI recruiter.

Ian: 33:29

Now I'm giving you a whole lot more than I can skip all of this and just tell you about the DIA if you want, or I can tell you about what it was like going through the process.

Derek: 33:38

No. It's if you have if you have time and you think it's pertinent,

Ian: 33:43

then go ahead. Lay it out. Sure. So I well, I applied to all of the, you know, traditional agencies, the FBI, the Secret Service, the Treasury Department, and then the DIA, which at the time I had never even heard of. And who else?

Ian: 33:59

Somebody else. Anyway so the main departments. And so the FBI was one of the first ones that I that had their hiring fair, and it was at a it was at a small college in Central North Carolina. So I drove to this college, and the and the guy that you know, their field agent that was running the exam was kind of a he was not a pleasant guy. And now I'm probably, I don't know, 30 at this point.

Ian: 34:26

Mid thirties probably. And he's like a and I don't know. For some reason, he must've he just had kind of a a hard on for, I guess, ex army guys. He didn't and so when he saw me there, he's like, well, you're not gonna do very good. Don't you know, you you might as well not even take this test type of attitude towards me.

Ian: 34:45

And I looked at him, and I don't even I might have pointed my finger at him. I'm not sure. But I was like, I'm gonna take this test, and I'll probably be the first one done. And when you're gonna call me and offer me a job, and you're not gonna like it. And and, you know, and he was like, yeah.

Ian: 34:59

Okay. Whatever. Well, he didn't know I had prepared. I I didn't know what was on the test, but I had prepared for it, and I had been a Green Beret. So I, you know, I just had some skills that to answer the questions.

Ian: 35:13

When I get my test, I don't even remember how long it was, hour and a half, two hours, however long the test is. And I must have finished it in, like, thirty five, forty minutes. Nobody else is even remotely done. I get up, grab my gear. He's sitting out drinking coffee in the lounge.

Ian: 35:30

I hand my test to him, and he's like, done already. And he's real dismissive towards me. I was like, yeah. Don't call me. And then I walked off.

Ian: 35:41

And it's about a week and a half. Two weeks later, guess who calls me? That dude. And he offers me a job to come be on, what was it? But not the counterterrorist.

Ian: 35:51

Was it counterterrorist unit? I think it's counterterrorist unit at the time. And I was like, I had such a negative taste in my mouth from him as just just this pencil neck dude being dismissive towards me. I was like, no. Thanks.

Ian: 36:06

You know, I had smoked their test, and he offered me a job to come up there. I said, no. Thanks. I didn't wanna be associated with anybody like him. So then I go take the secret service test.

Ian: 36:16

Now these were perfectly normal people. And at the end, again, I did very well. And so I'm doing my interview before they offer you a job, and they're like, is there one thing that you don't wanna do? It might have been two things. I'm not sure.

Ian: 36:32

And I said, well, I have no interest in shooting a fellow American. And I think that pretty much they they didn't offer me a job after that because I was like, I have no interest in shooting Americans. Now if if the whole Secret Service job would have been deploying overseas and and shooting non Americans, I'd have been perfectly up for it at that point. But I wasn't up for the idea of shooting Americans to save a president's life. And so I didn't get the Secret Service job.

Ian: 37:01

They never offered it to me. I had a so I applied to the DIA, never heard a word from them. And then out of the blue, this guy calls me up, and he says, you, Ian Manille? I said, yeah. He says, I've got a job.

Ian: 37:15

Do you want it? Now at this point, I'm flat broke. I have been out of work for a couple of months, and I have nothing. And he says, you want a job? And I said, yep.

Ian: 37:26

And he said, alright. Meet me over here at NC State. I'm at a hiring fair. You are the only person in the entire DIA database who was a Green Beret. And so when I queried the database for all people that have made applications and looked in for Green Berets.

Ian: 37:43

You're the only one that came up, so that you're the one that I'm hiring for this job. I had no idea what the job was. Nothing. But being a Green Beret opened the door for me again.

Derek: 37:54

Wow.

Ian: 37:54

And so I accepted the job and learned how to be a intel analyst or an intel weenie as I would as I still call it. That would so that but that's what opened the door was being a Green Beret, and the guy who was hiring me had been a Green Beret, and so he wanted other Green Berets for a special project that he was starting up and standing up. And so I worked in that special project for seven years.

Derek: 38:19

Okay. Yeah. Without getting into to specifics, because I'm sure you probably can't share certain things, but, like, what was your basic job description? Like, you just you yeah. Obviously, you dealt with intelligence, but, like, what did you do with it?

Ian: 38:36

Well, so my I was an intel analyst, and my job and so I started out as a, you know, just a general intel analyst, but, you know, there were very specific country, and they still are. The same exact country that The United States consider you know, tells everybody is our enemy. And so my job was to to read the intel on those companies or not those companies, those countries. And that was a wide range of things. So I was primarily involved in nuclear counter proliferation and trying to keep these countries from either acquiring a nuclear program or exporting a nuclear program if they already had one.

Ian: 39:19

And so that was my primary job. So I was the intel analyst, but I was paired up with a whole bunch of engineers. And this is what was really awesome, and and it was wonderful because I worked with the smartest guys in the world, just great guys. And half of them had been well, actually, no. Wait more than that.

Ian: 39:41

Most of these guys had been former military in one branch or another, but they had also either got out and got an engineering degree or got an engineering degree while they were in the service. And so they were all just super smart. But what they needed was a guy like me who would spend his entire day reading hundreds of pages of intelligence and then pulling the stuff that they needed. And so that's what I did. And then when they did their stuff and created their papers or created what they could do with the engineering side, I was the guy who then had to write it up.

Ian: 40:19

And because I was also a writer, you know, I had and I don't even know how that happened, but I ended up somehow being a writer. And the engineers were not known for writing or at least not making it, you know, readable as if they write. And so I found the front end of the intelligence, gave it to all the engineers. The engineers did all of their engineering work, and they spit out their product. And then I took their product and wrote it into a, you know, a report that would then be presentable to congress, presidents, the Pentagon, whoever.

Ian: 40:55

And so it was it was I worked with the best people in the world there. Still good friends with all of them. But, you know, at the end of the day, what what we were doing was utterly terrible stuff. And I utterly disagreed with it the whole time I was there. Yeah.

Ian: 41:14

So you told good guys.

Derek: 41:16

You told me, a little bit about, you know, working through all of that intelligence and, kind of becoming frustrated with everything. And, one of the things that you mentioned was, you know, one of the re the reasons that you really disliked it is because you recognize that, like, you all were being propagandized with the intelligence and everybody around you was, propagandized. And you stressed to me that this is your opinion, but I'm assuming that you have anecdotes and some evidence to back it up. But could you talk a little bit about, you know, if you guys are the ones looking at, I don't know, primary source data and looking at intelligence, how is it that that you all or the intelligence was was propagandized?

Ian: 42:04

Well, I'll give you a more recent anecdote. So I'm still friends with a bunch of these guys. And do you remember the ghost of Kiev story about how this Kiev guy was shooting down all these Russian planes? You remember that, like, a year ago?

Derek: 42:19

Yeah.

Ian: 42:20

And it was complete hogwash and made up. Right? It's been proven. It's utter fiction. A bunch of my other Intel friends were all big huge fans of the ghost of Kiav.

Ian: 42:36

And and and the whole time, I knew it was fiction. And I I've been out for a long time. I'm like, this isn't true. This isn't accurate. But these are all highly paid intelligence analysts, and they're all like, oh, the ghost of Kiev is winning the war.

Ian: 42:50

And then when they talked about whatever that island was outside of Kiev and how some guy defeated the whole Russian navy or whatever it was. I was like, man, does that even sound remotely true? But they bought it hook, line, and sinker. So I tell you those two recent anecdotes to show you how it works. Because when you're on the inside, you're you just you just take it hook, line, and sinker that what you get is accurate and true.

Ian: 43:19

And so now there's, of course, there's different grades that are assessed towards intelligence, and it's given a different number numerical value, you know, to about how good it is judged and the quality of it. And then you're supposed to turn those numbers into other terms of probability when you write. But the problem is is the whole thing skewed because you don't know who's putting it in there and why. And so you can look at the Iraq intelligence that was that was vetted and verified at all the highest levels that Iraq had all these WMDs and we then The US had to go in there to get it. Right?

Ian: 43:59

All that information was cooked. It came out, you know, years later that it was all cooked. It wasn't true. The bad information had been fed into the system, and bad information was given to people who were charged with creating intelligence assessments. And so the only thing they could do given bad information was make bad assessments and especially when they know the desired end of the people that are on the receiving end.

Ian: 44:29

They wanted to have those weapons there. So, miraculously, the intelligence came out to tell them exactly what they wanted.

Derek: 44:37

Yeah. Yeah. No. I They're true. I I understand that.

Derek: 44:40

I was recently reading a book about Vietnam called The Best and the Brightest, and and, a couple of other books as well. But it was it's interesting because, you know, they they talk about the same thing, except they often talk about it being cooked kind of the other way. You know, you're talking about it being cooked for, you know, us prevailing. Like, hey, look, our side our side is winning or, you know, this this ghost of Kyiv is is over there and it's helping our cause. But, you know, in Vietnam, it also kind of kind of worked the other way where, when you talk about how, how bad the enemy is and, so, you know, with body counts and with, like territory controlled or with how well you're doing or, how how poorly the enemy is performing, like, they they would give the brass all of these reports that were just untrue.

Derek: 45:36

And then higher ups would make decisions based on that intelligence. And then, of course, they'd make really terrible decisions and based on that cooked intelligence. So but yeah. Well, both Sorry. Go ahead.

Ian: 45:50

No. Go ahead. No. You finish, and then I'll tell you a couple more stories.

Derek: 45:55

Yeah. Yeah. So you were talking about Afghanistan. I mean, the reports that have been coming out over the past few years are just absolutely atrocious in terms of, you know, the misallocation of of goods and resources and all of the, you know, the companies who who made tons of money based on on our decisions. But, you know, the the seeds or whatever can't even be grown in Afghanistan that we sent over there.

Derek: 46:17

All kinds of just crazy stuff. And then just the history of, you know, the Pentagon papers were were huge in regard to Vietnam and, the Gulf Of Tonkin incident being, fabricated. I think there's just there's just a huge long history of this. So I understand that what you're saying is is true. I think it's it's hard for a lot of people with this idea of American exceptionalism to really believe it.

Ian: 46:46

Yeah. No. So here here's another way that kind of opened my eyes, and I just had to get out of the intel world. And I can't without even remotely talking about where where in the world this was. So I'll just there was a a and I'm sorry.

Ian: 47:04

The lawn guy just got here and is outside. Okay. Is it is it interrupting your ability to hear me?

Derek: 47:10

No. I think it'll work. It's fine.

Ian: 47:13

Okay. So somewhere in the world, The United States didn't want somebody to get a widget. And then I I was finding all kinds of, you know, all kinds of raw reports. Well, not raw because they had been processed, but intel of these widgets going from, you know, this this line of ways from the company that made them and then the different route that it went and how it arrived at wherever it was going. And I was like, oh, man.

Ian: 47:47

Look at here's a here's a report of this widget. And then I kept looking and I kept looking, and I and I'm writing evaluations to the to the Intel guy who is collecting these reports and publishing them. And so I get a handful more. And at at the end of the you know, of a period of time, I maybe have 12 of these reports. And we had this software program that I absolutely love, and now I just forgot about what I forgot.

Ian: 48:14

Oh, analyst notebook. We had this software program called analyst notebook that is awesome. And so you've prob I don't even think they use it anymore. Now they're using the one that was made by In Q Tel, and I'm really opposed to it because it's just it's garbage. Analyst notebook would allow you to build these networks.

Ian: 48:34

And so you go line by line through intel reports, and you build out all these networks based off the people, the places, the money, and the things. And so what I would do and I this was taught to me by a a really highly skilled social network analyst. He taught me how to do this. And so after I go through these 12 reports, I built out this entire network. I have now I think I wrote two or three papers on this network and how, you know, country a was acquiring these widgets that we didn't want them to get.

Ian: 49:09

And I was like, I here I am. I'm thinking I'm blowing the doors off of this. Right? And then come to find out, I have barriers to publication. And I'm like, why am I not being able to and, of course, this isn't published for a wide this is published for a very limited number of eyes to see.

Ian: 49:31

And I'm like, why can't I publish this? And so it took me about a month or so to figure it out. The US and I and I I don't again, I don't wanna go into any details, but we were putting those products into their country. We were working with the manufacturer to make these widgets, and then we were enabling the entire network. And, actually, he'd created the network so those so we could export these widgets to this other place.

Ian: 50:00

And I'm like, these intel reports paint this like they're doing it, but they're not doing it. We're doing it and then telling and then making stories about how they're doing it and it's wrong. And this really capped my hide because I had spent, let's say, you know, three months figuring this out. And I put it together because of network analysis, and and it was you know, it just it allows you to see the whole picture and to really figure things out. Palantir.

Ian: 50:33

That's the name of the the new program they all use that I really find offensive. And you could you know, that's made by In Q Tel, and everybody uses Palantir now. It replaced analyst notebook, but it's 10 times less efficient in quality. But that's an that's my personal opinion. So, anyway, so I was real disgusted at this point because I had figured something out, and it wasn't even them doing it.

Ian: 50:57

It was us doing it to them. So then I'm working on another problem and a whole another side of the world on a different set you know, I was I was really blessed with this job that I had because I had latitude to pursue the types of things that interested me because, of course, they all interest the government. And so I'm pursuing these other things in a whole another part of the world where it's an it involves more commodities that are being moved, and I end up figuring out it's the exact same thing. That we were cooking all the intelligence because it was us doing it. Now I only figured this out again because it used a network analysis, and I wasn't allowed to publish anything on it because I had, you know, I had figured out that we were the ones doing it.

Ian: 51:46

And so that's why I say I I well, I I have such a jaded opinion of the intelligence world now because I just using those two instances, I know that it wasn't the other side or the other people that were doing it. It was us doing it. And then writing reports, and you and you would never figure it out. Like, my peers weren't figuring this stuff out. I figured it out because I was analyzing the networks and digging into it and going real deep and spending way too much mental capital in figuring this stuff out.

Ian: 52:21

But once you do that kind of stuff and you start figuring those things out, you start seeing the pattern and you're like, wait a minute. These problems are self created. And it was after the second time I figured this out, I became a worthless intel analyst because I just couldn't do the job anymore. And I left about six months later.

Derek: 52:42

Yeah. It's it's nice to, to be able to make a whole bunch of money to some country and then, know that in the future, you'll be able to have the grounds for war based on the things that you sold to that country. That's, it reminds me a little bit have you seen the movie Lord of War? Yes. Oh, it's one of my favorite movies because it's it's, so, I I like more cynical movies where the good doesn't always prevail because I think that's more reality.

Derek: 53:14

But I love the ending with Nicolas Cage where, you know, know, he's been selling all these, these arms to all these countries and he gets caught by Interpol and he's in this room and he's like, he's like, look, in, in like one minute, this guy's going to come and he's going to let me out. He's going to tell you, you did a great job. He's going to pin a badge on your chest. He's going to say good work for for your country. And then they're gonna let me go because your government is my biggest employer.

Derek: 53:40

And today, they need me to sell arms to some other country. That's exactly what, you know, what this reminds me of.

Ian: 53:48

Yeah. The the intel. Now when I say that, those individual folks on the you know, sitting in those big office buildings and pouring over it, none of them they don't know. They don't know that the intel's cooked because I I really think they just will not look at it critically because their job depends upon it. They're being paid a hundred plus thousand dollars a year to not realize that they're just doing a pretend make work job to justify whatever it is the government wants to do.

Derek: 54:20

So would you

Ian: 54:21

say what they do.

Derek: 54:22

Would you say that because what I'm finding is that, yeah, I didn't know all of this stuff, but it really didn't take all that much leg legwork. I mean, Smedley Butler, it came out almost a hundred years ago with War is a racket and like this stuff isn't difficult to find, like all the different conspiracies that that we know are true. You know, like COINTELPRO being one of the big ones, the Pentagon Papers, Assange, WikiLeaks. I mean, there's so many things that have come out. It's not hard to know.

Derek: 54:53

So would you say that you think it's out of convenience and comfort, like, people don't want that ruffled? Is that why people kind of buy into this?

Ian: 55:04

Well, yeah. They have a mortgage. They got kids. They're being paid well to pretend that they're doing a good job and that the world needs them. Now I I get jaded a little bit on now, of course, this isn't everybody, but there's some of the some of my peers in the intel world really think they're special.

Ian: 55:26

And they really think because they have access to information that regular people don't have access to, that they're really special and the whole world would fall apart. Now, again, this isn't everybody. This is, like, 15%, and they're really hard to be around. I mean, they are just I call I got to the point where I was at when I was in in Telleen that I just called them true believers. They believed everything that came down.

Ian: 55:54

They believed that what they were doing was saving the world even though they had you know, what they did were doing was utterly worthless. They just thought that, you know, the as you mentioned earlier, American exceptionalism, they are 100 bought into it, and they don't want that nut cracked. They don't wanna see what's on the inside and that it's a bunch of hogwash. I mean, what would would do you think they wanna go get a real job?

Derek: 56:25

Right. Yeah. And I I think it's those people, the the true believers, as you called them, that, are the scariest because they're they're willing to sacrifice everything to the cause. And, one of the things that you, you said that I think would unnerve a lot of people and maybe would cross the line for some people because, the delusion is big and it would be world changing if we believe this. But you said that, one of the things that you realized is that, everyone is the enemy, you said, including Americans.

Derek: 57:00

And I think that's a really important concept to grasp for us because I think, it's easy to stand behind our government and the military when you think that, the world out there is dangerous and it's trying to get in and they're terrorists and all of those other things. We've got China, we've got Russia. We're worrying about all of all of these enemies out there. But if if I were to believe that I am my government's enemy, that would be that would be earth shattering. Could you kind of, expound on on what you said there a little bit and explain how are Americans, enemies of our government?

Ian: 57:43

Well, I suppose because they have the ability to stop it from doing what it's doing if they ever decided to move as a group and say no and stop accepting it. And so they can't be given the truth, and they can't see behind the curtain. And so they just have to be propagandized and fed all these stories like, you know, the good guy always wins. You know, the good guy always wins in these in most of these movies. You know, they don't show even when they show, like, a a CIA agent overseas doing something questionable, the end will end up justifying the means later.

Ian: 58:28

And so, yeah, people just have no idea in America what the government is doing while claiming to do it on their behalf because it's not on their behalf. It's for the government's behalf. And all these nameless and faceless bureaucrats who are living right next door to you and me, you know, because these offices are all over the world, all over the country. There's all these different military industrial complex intel offices in every city, and they all have access. There's an army of intel officers all across the country, and people have no idea about it because they just work in some office building that just has a name on it.

Ian: 59:10

But there's a floor that you can't get to unless you have a a badge. And on that floor, there's a whole bunch of people looking at Intel stuff, and they're also living in your neighborhood. And they're all over, and and they that's a gravy train. That's a gravy train, and so they they just the The US population's in the truth are the enemies to them. Now I would say this is that to take it even more dark, I think without a doubt, if the military was told to do a to conduct operations within the borders, almost every single one of the soldiers, airmen, naval, whatever they call navy guys, demon, I guess, every one of them would conduct those operations.

Ian: 01:00:01

They'd go house to house. They'd round people up. They'd cuff them. They'd do anything that they were told to do because they would believe that the intel and the reasons they're told to do it must be true.

Derek: 01:00:13

So would do you if I can ask this personal question, do you think that you and your buddies maybe not now, but would you have done that?

Ian: 01:00:22

Without a doubt. Okay. Yeah. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.

Derek: 01:00:27

Yeah. Because you you have to buy in, I guess. And and there's the there's that deferral to the the higher up. You know, the guy above me must know what he's talking about, and the guy above him must know.

Ian: 01:00:39

Oh, well, it it's all go home team. You think that you're being led and the things you're doing are all for the best, and that there's no chance that you're you're on the wrong side of the team or that you're on the wrong side of the game. And so, yeah, if I was told that, oh, yeah. There's a whole pocket of these this whole neighborhood's bad dude. They're doing whatever.

Ian: 01:01:01

You know? Who knows what? What story they would tell? I would had the well, let's look at Waco. There's a prime example for you.

Ian: 01:01:10

There was US military and US feds all involved in that, and they didn't have a single problem taking out an entire compound filled with men, women, and children. And it would happen again today if anybody told if they pointed that in another community, they would do it again.

Derek: 01:01:30

Yeah. And was it Ruby Ridge? Was that another one of those?

Ian: 01:01:34

Yeah.

Derek: 01:01:36

Yeah. So it it also reminds me I don't know if you ever heard, the quote. It's not directly with the military, but it's, you know, with with our system. John Ehrlichman was, an assistant to the president for domestic affairs, under Richard Nixon. So in, in an interview that he had or, or in his diary, I forget which one, but there's this, there's this quote from him that's, that I think summarizes what's going on here.

Derek: 01:02:01

So he says, quote, you wanna know what this war on drugs was really all about? The Nixon campaign in 1968 and the Nixon White House after that had two enemies, the anti war left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, But by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news.

Derek: 01:02:31

Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did. So, you know, that, you know, straight from the horse's mouth is, is one of those that I think shows how the, how everything is kind of run. You know, you you get this veneer of credibility and we're doing this for your good. And a lot of times, actions and legislation and stuff are implemented with a very pointed aim.

Ian: 01:03:02

Absolutely. There's no doubt about it whatsoever. I mean, it's rare that they would speak so blatant and truthfully about it. But yeah. I mean, if anybody thinks that they're not using the exact same calculus today to make decisions and do things.

Ian: 01:03:18

They're crazy.

Derek: 01:03:21

So Still

Ian: 01:03:21

going on.

Derek: 01:03:23

Yeah. When you talk about the, the true believers and Americans being enemies, I think I think what is helpful for me to understand is that, you know, when, when you take your oath, you take your oath to, correct me if I'm wrong, to uphold the constitution. Is that what, what your oath is?

Ian: 01:03:44

Yep. That's true.

Derek: 01:03:45

Okay. So so you don't take an oath to the American people. You take an oath to some ideal, some ideas, some, document, the constitution. And for me, that's a little bit scary because it seems like, you know, you could do all sorts of evils to people in the name of doing good to some to some constitution. You know, you can spy on foreigners and US citizens alike, which Snowden shows us the extent to which that's been going on.

Derek: 01:04:11

You know, do what you need to do to preserve the country in this image that we have of ourselves. So now, could you talk a little bit about maybe the threat of, internal propaganda, the idea of American exceptionalism, this ideal of, of, this, this constitution that we can sacrifice our fellow citizens to. Talk a little bit about, you know, the ideal of the constitution and kind of how that is maybe a little bit at the core of why you and your friends twenty years ago would have done what you were told if if people told you to kind of go and round up people, American citizens.

Ian: 01:04:55

Well, we probably have to establish a couple of things first. I would say and I don't even know what number to put it on, but a significant number of those people who raise their hand and swear their loyalty to the constitution have never read it. And those that have read it may have read it one time and didn't understand what it said in the least bit. And so you now I was a little bit different because I read it. I had a, you know, my old handy dandy pocket constitution, and there was a number of years I considered myself a constitutionalist and was, you know, would and voted with the constitution party and so, you know, I was a little bit bigger into the constitution than most most I can't say, you know, guys and girls raising their hand have absolutely no idea what it says.

Ian: 01:05:54

And so they will then do whatever those who are told to them tell them it says they must do. And so if you look at what the government is actually looking like in its in its massive scope these days, there is almost nothing the government does that could actually be considered constitutional. But since nobody reads it and they just say, well, you know, it's the government. You can't beat city hall. It's gonna do whatever it wants to do.

Ian: 01:06:25

And there's there's these mythical nine guys and girls who are gonna protect us in the event somebody ever tries to push the envelope too far. People just accept it. And they think, oh, yeah. Well, we're just defending. And they've told me that that's constitutional, so it's constitutional.

Derek: 01:06:42

Okay. So

Ian: 01:06:43

so that that's unconstitutional.

Derek: 01:06:45

So the constitution, because of people, a, not reading it and, b, not understanding it, the constitution isn't what the constitution says. The constitution is what the authorities tell me it says. Is that essentially what you're saying?

Ian: 01:07:02

Absolutely. Yeah.

Derek: 01:07:04

It's, we we've referenced a lot of movies here. So here's another one. Have you ever seen the book of Eli?

Ian: 01:07:11

Yes.

Derek: 01:07:12

Okay. Yeah. This is exactly like that, except in the book of Eli, it's the bible, and you've got all these people who are who are taking it and trying to control it to, aim people for different ends. But I guess, essentially, the same thing. It's, the constitution though.

Derek: 01:07:26

You know? Okay. If I have this constitution, I can determine what it means. Therefore, I can I can aim you wherever I want because I tell you what it means?

Ian: 01:07:36

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. It it is a cult. And the you granted, everybody has access to it, but nobody reads it.

Ian: 01:07:50

And they take for granted that those that are actually in power care what it says and take what it says into consideration when it's been shown that it's just a mythical piece of paper. That really doesn't stop anybody from doing anything, and it doesn't provide any parameters. And so the government really does anything that it wants at any time. And people like I used to be when I was a big constitutionalist just sit there and go, if only we practice what it says, this would work. And I man, I don't know how many times I said that to myself.

Ian: 01:08:28

If only we would do what this piece of paper says, we wouldn't have these problems.

Derek: 01:08:34

So American

Ian: 01:08:35

the I was the fool.

Derek: 01:08:37

American exceptionalism seems a little bit like the doctrine of inerrancy just for, for The United States as opposed to the Bible.

Ian: 01:08:46

You could say that. Although, while saying that, I do subscribe to inerrancy in the Bible.

Derek: 01:08:54

Yeah. Yeah. But that's it's a little bit different because that's a a different sort of document, I would argue.

Ian: 01:09:01

Well, no doubt about it.

Derek: 01:09:03

But, I mean, there is there is a whole lot of belief about, you know, our founding fathers being maybe not divinely inspired to the same extent, but essentially divine sort of. I mean, we treat them as such, people in my groups anyway. So maybe you could talk a little bit about, American exceptionalism because I think, you know, this idea that we've got this pristine constitution. We've got this divine founding from these, these people who, you know, are are immaculate. Like we can't talk about the bad things that they did, either because that's, that's essentially canceling them, all those kinds of stuff, kinds of things.

Derek: 01:09:51

And if you could talk a little bit about this, this idea of, of exceptionalism, because I think it has to be exposed for people to see the threat of our militarism. Because if we think that we are the good guys and we can't ever see that we're bad and that we have, you know, some of these, these ulterior motives, you know, the, the Banana Republic, the wars that we had in South America, the coups, all of those things, then that's, that's a problem because we're going to continue to do injustice. So you said that for you, one of the things that helped you to uncover American exceptionalism was in Afghanistan. So if we could come kind of full circle back to, to your starting point, could you maybe explain now that we've gone through a lot of, a lot of, a lot of your experiences, maybe come full circle and talk about if you were trying to convince somebody now to see the American exceptionalism, how would you start?

Ian: 01:10:52

Oh, well, I have only successfully done this with only a handful of people. I have failed with it on almost every regard. And I think the only way to get somebody to realize that the and so I call it, you know, go home team. Presumably, you went to high school, and you had whatever your high school mascot was. And you I don't know.

Ian: 01:11:18

You might have played sports. Maybe you didn't. But either way, you rooted for your team no matter who they were playing. Well, American exceptionalism is the same thing, except instead of rooting for, you know, your team to win in football or basketball or baseball, you're rooting for them in every single instance no matter where it is and what it is. And so you just can't see the warts.

Ian: 01:11:41

And the very limited number of people that I have got to that I have exposed to this and brought around where they could see the light and the truth. It took years, and it was long, slow conversations on long drives. So a couple so I'll I'll use one guy without, you know, you talking about him personally. He and I used to go on I mean, it was almost a weekly drive, and the drive would take about two hours to get to where we were going and then to come back. So we were in the car for four hours together once a week.

Ian: 01:12:24

And during that time, we didn't turn the radio on. We had a conversation very much like you and I are talking about or or how we're having it. And over the span of about, oh, I don't know, twelve to fifteen months, he went from being a dyed in the wool hardcore, well, true believer to realizing that it was a sham. The problem was, what's he gonna do now? Is he going to rearrange his entire life, give up the the very comfortable living that he has, and struggle to make ends meet and figure out how to earn an honest living?

Ian: 01:13:13

Or is he going to suppress what he knows, pretend that it doesn't exist even though he does, and continue earning a very comfortable living? What do you think he which direction do you think he went?

Derek: 01:13:27

Oh, it'd be hard not to take the you know, continue until retirement and and stuff. That would be hard. So, yeah, I I think he probably

Ian: 01:13:37

did get rid of that. He did. He's he and he and I love this guy, but he's but I couldn't do it. I had to leave. Yeah.

Ian: 01:13:52

It's, like, it's almost impossible. And I actually just had this conversation recently with a couple other people and then and, you know, bringing the church into it. You know? Somebody might spend your your most dedicated person in a church might spend three hours in it and devoted to it and working towards the kingdom of God a week. Their kids might spend three hours in the institutional setting, and then you would hope that maybe they're reading their Bible at home, maybe fifteen minutes a day.

Ian: 01:14:27

Probably not, but maybe. And so at the end of a week, seven days, they have spent and I'm being generous saying they're gonna read their Bible every day because even though I know that almost nobody does. But let's say they do. At the end of the week, they've spent three hours thinking about the kingdom of God. Meanwhile, they've worked forty hours in the kingdom of Satan.

Ian: 01:14:58

Their kids have spent forty hours in government schools being indoctrinated, do not believe the same thing, but to believe in the go home team. It's almost impossible to beat that. The entire thing is set up to not be defeated. The only people who really have beat it are people like the Amish who never get plugged into it in the first place. Because I mean, if you just can't beat it, and then they come home and turn the TV on, and it happens even more.

Ian: 01:15:29

It's frustrating.

Derek: 01:15:31

Yeah. That that word that you just used was a life changer for me, or that phrase, the kingdom of God, because, you know, for me, growing up in conservative Christianity and I'm I'm still in conservative Christianity, so it's very difficult for me. And and I wanna pick your brain for the last question on this in in just a second. But, I'm still in conservative Christianity, and I believe, like you, inerrancy. I believe, in in, moral, conservative morally conservative stances.

Derek: 01:16:05

Like, I think that abortion is morally wrong. I think those kinds of things. Yet at the same time, if if a lot of our supporters would ever find this podcast, I don't really publicize it, too much. But if they would find this, I think they would be appalled. And it's not because I say anything heretical in terms of, core tenants of the faith, but it's because the kingdom of The United States and the kingdom of God are indistinguishable to them.

Derek: 01:16:42

And, I would, I would love maybe for, for the last question, as a Christian, for you to talk about the kingdom of God and to explain how how this view of the kingdom of God revolutionizes the way that we live and how that is separate from the kingdom of The United States and and actually in quite a lot of ways antithetical to it. Because you're a you're a pastor, we didn't, mention that at the beginning. So I would love for you to

Ian: 01:17:11

I am.

Derek: 01:17:11

Maybe tell tell me a little bit about that journey and weave in the kingdom of God versus the kingdom of The United States.

Ian: 01:17:18

Well, it's utterly painful because I've been fired from two churches for having these views and not worshiping the kingdom of man and the kingdom of The United States.

Derek: 01:17:28

Oh, man.

Ian: 01:17:29

I've been fired from two churches for it because nobody well, almost nobody in the churches I've pastored is going to not bow down to the authority of the federal government. It's preeminent in the church. And so as a pastor, I struggle with that because I try to get people to realize that you are not supposed to be an American first and a king and a member of the kingdom of God second. You are a member of the kingdom of God, and you just happen to be an American. And so that is well, I almost quit ministry because of it, because it is such a uphill climb.

Ian: 01:18:22

And the thing is, many of you know, obviously, I I'm in these conservative circles that you're in, and the people that and I and I love these people. They're wonderful people, but they absolutely can't see that they have subjugated and lowered the kingdom of God and made it akin to The United States. They can't see the warts of The United States. They can't see that they they put more effort into being an American than they've ever put towards being a Christian. They can't accept that the the behavior and the activities and the actions of the US military are not good.

Ian: 01:19:10

They're not. They can't believe that the CIA would, you know, do terrible things. They can't believe that our politicians would be corrupt. They just can't believe those things. They can't see it.

Derek: 01:19:23

The politicians from the other party can't be.

Ian: 01:19:27

Well, there you go. That's true. If only there were more and just insert your, you know, flavor there. You know, it's it's just do government better. If only they did government better, it would all work.

Ian: 01:19:40

And they just can't see that it's government's working perfect. It's doing exactly what it was designed to do. It's taking the eyes of Christians and removing them from the kingdom of God and putting them on a flag and putting them on a, you know, behind a a rifle and supporting any number of terrible activities and just saying go home, team. Always go home, team. And so I've had a very I'm probably the worst pastor in the country because I have struggled with that mightily.

Ian: 01:20:17

And, you know, it's a challenge to get people to realize that they're not here to be a a tool in The United States kit bag. They are here to be a representative of the kingdom of God to get more people saved and to disciple those people. That that just doesn't that just doesn't mesh in people's lives.

Derek: 01:20:42

Now that that resonates with me

Ian: 01:20:43

so much. Thing is upside down.

Derek: 01:20:46

Yeah. Because, you know, on a lot of these things, I would I would, align a whole lot more with with what people would associate with liberals, you know, with immigration and stuff and and borders and, anti war, anti government, like all those kinds of things. But then in terms of like the Bible and moral issues, and how we should live our lives, I'm very conservative. And it's like, you're going to be hated by everybody and you just, it's, it's, not a win win. So, I appreciate your openness there because My mom

Ian: 01:21:27

will still like you.

Derek: 01:21:29

That's true. That's true.

Ian: 01:21:34

And your dog too. So get a couple of dogs, be nice to your mother, and you'll always have a couple of people that will still like you even when the whole rest of the world hates you.

Derek: 01:21:45

Well, it's extremely encouraging.

Ian: 01:21:47

Remember, they hated Jesus first.

Derek: 01:21:49

That's right. It's, it's encouraging to hear that you you've persisted. And, I I know that it's been difficult, but, I appreciate your persistence. And I guess that that is what the kingdom of God looks like. Right?

Derek: 01:22:01

You you seek to do the right thing no matter what and, just keep keep following. I think It's

Ian: 01:22:13

it's not easy. Yeah.

Derek: 01:22:16

I think that's as far as questions go, that's all I I have for you. Is there anything else that you would want to, add or plug or or clarify?

Ian: 01:22:28

Well, I mean, good golly. I probably said a dozen things that'll get my door kicked in and and, you know, make me hate it. But it's not anything I haven't already said before. You know, the thing is I really like, you know, being an I I don't know how much you've traveled, but I like being an American as far as the fact that, you know, in the same way that Paul liked being a Roman. He could freely move around the empire, and he could appeal to some even though I I mean, I hesitate to call it justice, but he could appeal to that justice.

Ian: 01:23:05

And so, you know, I like going to parks. I like that I have visited almost all 50 states, that I have been from coast to coast, north and south, east and west, and that I like people in all of them. But I disagree with almost every single thing done in my name. And it's all corrupt, and I can't be a part of that. And I don't think that as Christians, we look at that critically enough.

Ian: 01:23:33

We are willing to accept those warts, and we shouldn't be. Christians I mean, we should constantly be at the forefront of all of these moral fights, not because we wanna win politically. We should lose politically every single time because the things that are being done politically are counter to what God's word says and what God wants. But we should always be on the losing win end. But I think people don't like the thought of being on the losing team, and so they're willing to do anything they can to try and be on the winning team even if they have to lose everything to do it.

Derek: 01:24:15

Yeah. Including our souls.

Ian: 01:24:18

Absolutely. Yeah. It's it's not easy. I mean, it's really challenging. It's it's hard to find probably churches that would align with anything that we've talked about.

Ian: 01:24:30

I mean, I I looked at you know, we'll look at Trump when he was in office. His office, he received I think it was weekly visits, or were they monthly visits from the top evangelicals in the country that would go up there. The allure of visiting the president in the White House, going into his office, and supposedly praying for him. Did they not pay attention to a single thing he ever said or did? The same thing with George w Bush.

Ian: 01:25:03

Same exact thing. I mean, I I just look at these people, and I'm like, what is going on? You're not supposed to be up there working for the Romans and the emperor to suppress people and to keep people in prison. You're supposed to be trying to free people, but we have a different sense of freedom. And so I yeah.

Ian: 01:25:25

It's a challenge. Now I think I'm a boy, I think I must be fifteen, twenty years older than you. So I'm just gonna give you this warning. It's not gonna get any easier way and further down this road you go. Yeah.

Derek: 01:25:41

I mean, I'm anticipating, somebody eventually is gonna find this podcast and, and probably, it won't go too well. But, I'm I'm I think I'm prepared for that or else I wouldn't I wouldn't keep putting it out there. This season in particular though is a little bit rough because I talk about how the church has been a a false prophet in a lot of ways. And so I I explore that with how the church is kind of bitten, on latched onto propaganda and actually used it, in in wrong ways. So, it's not never good to talk bad about your own group.

Derek: 01:26:16

They don't like that.

Ian: 01:26:20

Yeah. Well, try being a pastor and doing it.

Derek: 01:26:23

Yeah. No. Thank you. But but but I appreciate that there's somebody out there who is trying that.

Ian: 01:26:33

And I'm sure there has to be other ones. I just don't know who they are or where they're at. Because when I go to the convention or when I'm in a room full of pastors, there ain't no there's no none other ones like me. I'm alone every time. But it just that is what it is.

Ian: 01:26:50

I've accepted it.

Derek: 01:26:52

So can I can I ask how, you know, how is it that that you've come to be fired? Like, is it from a sermon that you preach? Is it from private conversations? Like, what is it that they latch on to that that's kind of the linchpin for them to be like, okay. That's it.

Derek: 01:27:09

We're done.

Ian: 01:27:12

Well, I don't really know. I know. So now is like, if you read Mark and so I was it's my last church. I was preaching through Mark, and Jesus is opposed by the religious authorities just every, you know, every chapter. He is maintaining the straight and narrow path and exposing them to their misunderstandings of God's will over and over again.

Ian: 01:27:41

And if you preach that and talk about you know, you're gonna end up talking about, you know, where where else are we doing the same thing. And so I made it, I believe, through I'd have to look again. I don't remember. I think I made it through the eight the first eight chapters of Mark, and they fired me. And I never did anything wrong.

Ian: 01:28:03

Didn't do anything bad. I think it was some of my best preaching. I've gone back every now and then, and I'll listen to some of those sermons. And I'm like, man, those are some great, strong, solid sermons. Yeah.

Ian: 01:28:17

But I'm not waving the flag.

Derek: 01:28:19

If you have, any links to those, I'd love to listen to them, and I can even put them in the show notes if you're okay with other people,

Ian: 01:28:26

listening. Sure. I've got now, unfortunately, when I left where the my church plant, I had probably, like, a 50 of those. And I'd like an like a fool, I was like, oh, well, I'm going to a new church. I don't need these.

Ian: 01:28:39

And I deleted them all, and I so wish I had them. I don't know how many I've got. I've probably got a hundred sermons, maybe more 50 online from the last couple of years. I'll send you a link.

Derek: 01:28:50

Alright. Yeah. That'd be awesome. I'll put it in the show notes.

Ian: 01:28:54

Yeah. I'll I've I've, you keep I'm just thinking of when I when they broke out with the coronavirus and I and I preached that if there was truly a pandemic that was just going to to lay waste to all of humanity, there would be bodies piled up on street corners, and Christians would be the only ones picking them up. And I said, when I start seeing bodies on street corners, I'll believe that we're all gonna die from this pandemic.

Derek: 01:29:25

Yeah. That's it.

Ian: 01:29:26

They didn't like that too much.

Derek: 01:29:31

Well, I that's that's all I have. So, I appreciate your time, and, and, hopefully, we'll stay connected. I'd love to hear those sermons, and I'll if I ever find any other pastors like you, I will definitely connect you guys.

Ian: 01:29:49

Okay. Well, thank you very much, and thanks for the opportunity. I hope that you never get discovered and end up having to find new employment because it's not any fun. Yeah. But if you do, I hope that you stay true to the faith and don't waver because there's not many of us doing it.

Derek: 01:30:06

Alright. Well, thanks. That's all for now. So peace, and because I'm a pacifist, when I say it, I mean it. This podcast is a part of the Kingdom Outpost Network.

Derek: 01:30:39

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