Derek: 00:28

Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. For this episode, I had the opportunity to interview Jonathan and Ann Lynn Culp. They were recommended to me by Rebecca Mooey, who said that they might be able to give me some unique insight into the topic of propaganda as it pertains to race, in part because Jonathan and Ann Lin are an interracial couple. That's a particularly interesting situation for our discussion because as we talked about with propaganda a lot, polarization is something which is extremely common in regard to being propagandized. Right?

Derek: 01:07

You've got, one group that thinks extremely, in this direction and another group that thinks extremely in the other direction. So when you get Jonathan, who is raised in a similar environment to me in a conservative Christian largely white, rural community, and then you get Amlin, who is raised in a very different community, you kind of see these two worlds collide and you see what comes out on top, as they've they've worked through issues together. And so it's a a beautiful depiction of, two people who are trying to uncover truth and work together through, the polarization, the political polarization, the racial polarization, and everything. I think in the, in the interview throughout the whole thing, I think my favorite part and the part that I I think you ought to look out for the most is the one where Jonathan and Lynn come up with their two big reasons why things are the way that they are in the world, in The United States, but especially in the church. Like, why why do people, why are we susceptible to this, racism, this, propaganda?

Derek: 02:27

And so they they came up with two ideas that I completely agree with. The first one is politicizing. Right? And that's something that Jacques Elul, talked about. And I I had a quote in our foundations episode, and I'll make sure to to put that in the show notes here too.

Derek: 02:46

But Elul talked about how politics is it ends up, making everything political and polarizing to

Jon: 02:55

the

Derek: 02:55

extreme. And that's so true. Everything is a political issue. Even wearing a mask has become a political issue or was, at least, when when COVID was around. The other thing, that was mentioned was this idea of innocence, being in an, in a guilt innocence culture.

Derek: 03:18

And I don't usually hear us talk about our own culture as guilt innocence. Usually, when, when I talk to people who go cross culturally, they talk about how weird it is to be in a, in a honor shame culture. Right? Because it's so different from ours. But it makes sense that, well, if honor shame is different than ours, then we must have our own thing.

Derek: 03:40

Right? And that's just something that we're swimming in, so we don't really ever take note of it. But we are in a guilt innocence culture. And so this idea that we don't want to be viewed as guilty is is a big deal. And it's in part why we can't really talk about race because I can't really admit that I'm guilty of things that would constitute as racism because, you're either guilty or you're not.

Derek: 04:08

Right? There there aren't really levels, degrees, any of those sorts of things. And I can't lump myself into the category of having racist thoughts or racist actions or or anything like that. There's a lot more than that from Jonathan and Anlin in this episode. So, hopefully, you're able to listen to the whole thing and enjoy their wisdom and insight.

Derek: 04:34

So, the the the reason that I asked you all to share I think it was Rebecca who actually, recommended chatting with you because I was telling her a little bit about this this, season that I'm doing on, on propaganda and truth and discipleship, and just trying to figure out, how do we, how do we uncover propaganda in our own lives and things that we bought into because it's so hard to see. Mhmm. And then how do we help other people, disciple other people to see that? And then especially as the church, like, how do we do this as the church? Because it's so much more important for our witness, to to be able to do this effectively.

Derek: 05:15

And so Rebecca mentioned to you guys and said that, you might have some insight. I think because of your relationship, you probably have, a lot of insight that you guys have been able to to glean off of each other, and and be a bit more introspective. So, hopefully, you can share a little bit of that wisdom with, with me today. Alright. So maybe, first of all, if you guys wanna introduce yourselves and, maybe give a little bit of background that you might think would be pertinent here.

Annlyn: 05:43

Mhmm.

Jon: 05:44

Yeah. Go ahead.

Annlyn: 05:45

Go ahead. My name is Annlyn Kulp. Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. My parents were both, born and raised in Haiti, and they met here in The States. So I guess I call myself Haitian American.

Annlyn: 06:01

Yeah. I was in Brooklyn till I was about 14, then I moved to Long Island. So kinda urban to suburban, type living. And I went to school and everything here in New York. I went to college at Stony Brook university.

Annlyn: 06:15

I did a bachelor's in psychology and a master's in social work. I'm currently home taking care of our four girls, 11, nine, seven and five and partnering with John and ministry here at a little, our small church.

Jon: 06:28

And you

Derek: 06:29

said, you said Haitian background?

Annlyn: 06:31

Yes.

Derek: 06:32

Okay. That's, that's fascinating. I've been reading a lot about Haiti recently because, I've been trying to narrow down what do I want to talk about, when we get to our government section. And I think Haiti I I went and saw the Black Panther movie. I don't know if you've some seen the recent one.

Derek: 06:47

And,

Annlyn: 06:48

Tell me I need to.

Derek: 06:50

Yeah. Well, at the end, when when, they they named the guy, that they named the kid,

Jon: 06:55

I'm gonna butcher the

Derek: 06:56

name, but, like, Toussaint, I think Mhmm.

Jon: 06:58

They named him. I was like, oh my gosh. I know

Derek: 07:00

who that is. And,

Jon: 07:01

it

Derek: 07:02

was it was very, anti imperial, and and it was, it was interesting. So I've Mhmm. I'm enjoying studying Haiti.

Annlyn: 07:11

Yeah. Lots of history there.

Jon: 07:15

Yeah. So, I'm Jon Kulp, obviously. Mhmm. So I grew up on a farm in Middle America, the state of Wisconsin, and, grew up as a pastor's kid and a country boy.

Jon: 07:37

Although I got coined as a city slicker by my family, because I preferred to be in town at my my dad's car retail shop, rather than being on the farm, and I didn't like to get dirty. So needless to say, I've been living, in New York City for eighteen years. And this is where I call home, and I tell people this is where I finish growing up. So, yeah, met Annelyn, well, before I actually moved to New York. And then we became more acquainted and, realized that we had mutual interest in each other at some point, and we're married in 02/2007.

Jon: 08:34

Always had an interest in, kinda reaching the young, kind of older boy, young man population to, help them find manhood and ultimately find Jesus and had a particular and have a particular vision to see, young men that would otherwise maybe be on the streets, to, be under the worship of Jesus and to use their gifts and call in in in the body of Christ. So, I think, Annelyn and I particularly cared about, young people, and so Mhmm. That also drew us together. Yeah. So somewhere in along the way, 02/2011, I was called to, pastor be a part of the pastoral team at our church here in Brooklyn, followers of Jesus Mennonite Church.

Jon: 09:36

And in 02/2017, I was commissioned to the lead role, And so, that takes a lot of my time and energy, of course. And we're both still trying to learn how to be parents. Mhmm.

Derek: 09:50

Alright. Thank you. So as I was as I was trying to figure out, some of the questions to ask you, I was I was looking through, different materials on YouTube and and looking at some of your other interviews. And one of the ones that I I came across was, Anabaptist perspective interview. And and in there, I was on the edge of my seat because you guys were talking about your first fight as a couple.

Derek: 10:14

And, but then I was kind of left hanging because you you never really dug into what that was. And, and I think, I'm not sure, but I think that it's gonna be pertinent, to to kind of what we're talking about today. Would if it's not too personal, would you mind sharing a little bit about your your first fight as a couple and, maybe how that came about and what you what you learned from that?

Annlyn: 10:39

Mhmm. Yeah. I don't

Jon: 10:41

I'll set the stage. Yeah. You get the you get the content, and then we'll kinda wrap up. But, so setting the stage, she was Ammon was, still wrapping up senior year of undergraduate school. And, I was on campus to see her, And, we were feeling pretty good about our dating relationship.

Jon: 11:07

And then somewhere along the line well, I think she was taking some black history classes and kinda talking about that. You know, I was interested. And somewhere along along the line, I, you know, chimed in with Abraham Lincoln and, like, how what a great guy he was. Right? Black community.

Jon: 11:29

Mhmm. And Ammon didn't seem to be quite as intrigued as I was. So you take it from here.

Annlyn: 11:36

I think, you know, this is seventeen, eighteen years ago. So I just had a recollection that at the moment I was understanding him to say that we should all be grateful for what Lincoln did. That kind of thing. And I'm like, I think I, my reaction was, I'm grateful for the Emancipation Proclamation, that it was the right thing to do. But, furthermore, he didn't do it because he just felt that it needed to be abolished.

Annlyn: 12:05

Like you'll learn in African American history, courses that he wasn't an abolitionist. He was, he cared about the union. And so if he could have kept slavery and kept the union, we might not have had the emancipation. But because it was it was going to keep the union to it was it was all about the union. The priority wasn't about famous slaves.

Annlyn: 12:28

And so I'm like, yeah, that was a good thing that he did, but he should have done that a long time ago. And he didn't do it because he had some personal he felt personally interested in in caring for, African Americans. And then furthermore, there was personal things that he said, about feeling that white people were superior to black people at the time, which, which would have been the popular thought, but that just kinda adds to the the idea that he's not exactly like the black hero for us.

Jon: 13:00

Yeah. So, of course, that was very hard for me to hear that she would push back and kind of say, oh, you know, he might not have done that. And I said, well, you know, how can this, person of color actually not value what Abraham Lincoln did in freeing the slave? And this is a historic time in American history, and for me it's like really important because I'm not interested in being a part of a country that has a history of slavery, and so the man, the hero that saves the day, like, you know, that's that's gonna be forever celebrated. But I think to understand the collision, you know, I was exposed to more of a nationalistic driven American history, and Amlen had been exposed to a more comprehensive American history that had a had a a lot broader perspective.

Derek: 13:59

So for you, were you was that, like homeschool, Christian school, or just, you know, what you learned from maybe your family and peers?

Jon: 14:07

So I think it's it's kind of twofold. I think it's the natural history that I learned, that was I was taught and that was, primarily, the MECCA curriculum. And so, I fell in love with American history right out of the gate, right, first grade. And I was well on my way to being nationalistically minded myself. Mhmm.

Jon: 14:36

That's kind of another story. But at this point, I I was not compelled that way. But that that was the framework. I I saw I I'd said it was kinda twofold. I think the second piece is just being is growing up in Middle America.

Jon: 14:51

Right? You, you just don't have a broader perspective.

Derek: 14:55

Oh, yeah. No. No. I'm 100% with you on that. I grew up on that same and similar curriculum, and, I I think a very similar background in rural Pennsylvania.

Derek: 15:06

So

Jon: 15:07

Right. Okay. Yep.

Derek: 15:11

So yeah. You know, as an interracial couple, I think that that you guys have with your two different backgrounds, like I said earlier, I think that, because you you've gotten to see kind of, both groups and then come together and and meet, you kind of figure out where some of those different ideas, clash. And, John, in the interview that, I watched, you made a comment that I thought was really pertinent to to, our justice discussions today. You said that we're foolish to think that groups which have experienced significant oppression were formed over generations, but that oppressive groups, but that the oppressive group wasn't also formed over generations. And in my mind, there's this, there's this clip.

Derek: 15:57

I don't know if you've ever seen it, but Oprah, like, back in her her very early days, she went to, I think it was Forsyth, Georgia. And, she she's there, and she's talking to this this group of people because in Forsyth, Georgia, like, they had kicked out every black person. They said, like, they had sun sunset laws or some whatever they call them, where if anybody if any black person was there after sunset, like, there's no guarantee what was gonna happen. And so they they literally just took people's property and and kicked them out. And so when she's there, you see these these people who are rioting.

Derek: 16:33

You've got, like, 10 kids that are, 10 year old kids who are like, you can see the vitriol in their face of this hatred. And I'm I'm thinking I'm like, well, wait a second. I was alive at that time. Mhmm. Like, those 10 year old kids are only a couple years older than me.

Derek: 16:48

Like, they're the ones going into congress and, the senate and all of that stuff right now, like, be becoming mayors and all that stuff. Like, for for me to think that, you know, oh, yeah. Yeah. That was that's all history, ancient history. It's like, no.

Derek: 17:03

It's in people my age today. Like, I can see them on video camera doing this stuff, having this stuff indoctrinated into them. And so that was really that was really eye opening to me, to to kind of think about that that kind of thing, because, yeah, I don't think of my group as being indoctrinated or racist. So maybe, maybe each of you I know, John, you just kind of shared a little bit of of your views of Abraham Lincoln. But I don't know if there's if, Ann Lynn, there's anything that that, you've uncovered as well, maybe about some of your thoughts where you realize that, oh, I, you know, I was maybe mistaken on this.

Derek: 17:46

So maybe you guys could, give a few ideas or or actions that you've uncovered in your own life through your relationship with each other that, helps you to realize some things that maybe you were taught or understood incorrectly growing up?

Annlyn: 18:00

Yeah. I, I actually watched that clip then recently about Oprah in in Forsyth, Georgia. And hearing the comments just kinda reminded me of what I thought racism was growing up. So to me, the issue was the people that were in the interview, the people that were just using the N word on national TV saying we don't want them here. And they need to stay with their people and that type of stuff.

Annlyn: 18:29

To me, that was, I understood that that was the issue, the big issue that we need to battle in terms of racism. Just blatant racist, just people walking around, doing and saying intentionally hurtful things, with no qualms about it. But I had learned just even because of my relationship and just in my relationships with people at church and things too, that it's not so much the blatant racism that is hard to battle. That's obvious. It's right in your face.

Annlyn: 19:03

It's the sub the subtle underlying, subconscious prejudices that we don't realize is ingrained in our society and therefore ingrained in the way we relate to each other. That's that's the, the bigger, the bigger battle. How do you bring that to a conscious awareness so that people can interact with each other in healthier ways consciously? And so how that happened for us is like, this happened a while ago. I'll just share a personal story, but we were we were on a date.

Annlyn: 19:34

I think we were married right now. It was in our early years, but we were in a mall where sitting where we could eat, and where you were eating, you could see people see things happening. So somebody got arrested. The first it was a night where I guess several people were decided to shoplift, but the first person that got was being escorted out by police was a person of color. I don't know if they were Latino or black, but we're gone brown.

Annlyn: 19:57

Right? And John's initial comment was, got them. You know, like, which yeah. I was I agreed. I was like, yeah.

Annlyn: 20:05

You know? I don't know what these kids are up to. They were young kids. And then later on, as we're sitting on our day, it was an Asian lady that was being escorted out. And John said, you gotta wonder how she got herself in that position.

Annlyn: 20:17

Like and all of a sudden I was like, why didn't she say that before? Like well, and he and so that was, like, really good for both of us because, I mean, obviously, John's not racist. Right? Like, I know he loves me. I know he loves, like, not just me, but all people of color.

Annlyn: 20:32

Like, he's not, you would never intentionally hurt anyone, with his words. And he truly loves and cares about people. But there was this underlying assumption that for some people, they got what they deserved. And for someone else, maybe they just got themselves in a bad situation. But, like, we so then we ended up having a really good discussion about it because he wasn't consciously aware that he was even doing that, but I could hear it right away.

Annlyn: 20:56

So that's an example.

Jon: 21:02

Yeah. There's there's a lot. You know, we can't, compare here. One thing I might note, you know, kinda referencing the Foresight Georgia scenario there with Oprah. So there's something very specific to the South.

Jon: 21:22

Mhmm. And, and so I think, you know, going back to the comment that you referenced that I had made, you know, the I think there are there are families. Right? And and to your observation, you know, these these 10 year olds that are now, you know, in their forties or fifties or whatever, you know, that they're a product of they're potentially a product of family line that have held, racist views for for generations. Right?

Jon: 22:00

And maybe maybe even go back to being slave owners. And so there's a there's a really a very specific thing there that, you know, they have to deal with, and it impacts, just as deeply, I think, as as those that are oppressed. I think that what happens maybe, in the North where you didn't have quite that overt, of, you know, racism, slavery, and so forth, you have a problem where because you didn't have to engage Mhmm. These racial issues, then you don't actually know for sure

Annlyn: 22:54

Mhmm.

Jon: 22:54

What you think or feel until you have to encounter it. Mhmm. And so and then when you do and things begin to be exposed and you say things that like, woah. That didn't sound right. I I didn't mean that.

Jon: 23:18

Yeah. Definitely didn't mean that. Let me let me think how how should I say that. Well, actually, you kinda didn't mean it, but you didn't know that. Mhmm.

Jon: 23:27

And so that's kind of, I think, the challenge that many Americans in the, in the white community have to grapple with. The challenge is that takes humility. And if we're not willing to, to have those conversations and look at that, then then you can allow that to entrench, in your heart and, that can become something that you pass on.

Derek: 24:00

Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely, you know, growing up in the North, there's a lot now that after doing a lot of studying that I'm like, oh, yeah. I can look back on on my life or some of the things that, different family members or friends said and and realize now, okay. Yeah.

Derek: 24:16

I was I really was steeped in it, but you don't realize it while you're in it. And now that I feel like I've stepped out of it, it's very difficult to see so many of my friends and family and church community who are just vitriolic against, you know, this idea of systemic racism and, and that kind of stuff. It's, it's hard when you're steeped in it. So, one of the other things that, you brought up in the interview, you'd mentioned Ukraine, and you'd mentioned some of the racism that was going on there. And, you know, I I think at at this point in in The United States, I think we've gotten a little bit better at at talking about overt racism and denouncing overt racism.

Derek: 25:04

And, what what you brought up going on in Ukraine seems like one of those examples of overt racism that we should be able to denounce. Yet, like, I'm living in Romania right now, bordering Ukraine. I don't watch US news too much. But from my understanding, what was going on there in Ukraine didn't show up too much in US news. So would you would you mind kind of talking a little bit about what was, going on in Ukraine in in regard to racism and, you know, how much that was discussed in your circles or in The U S

Annlyn: 25:41

Yeah. So soon after the war broke out, everyone was fleeing the country, of course, And there are a lot of African students there. International students, they make up about 20% of the international student population in Ukraine, students from Africa, different parts of Africa. So they were fleeing too, trying to get on trains. Some of them walking really far to get to the closest border they could get to.

Annlyn: 26:09

And when they would arrive either at a train or at a border, they were being turned away because they were African. They were told things like, you're not Ukrainian, so you can't seek asylum or, getting on the train. They were told, Ukrainians get on first, you guys need to wait. And, sometimes even trains that still had space, they were told they couldn't get on to those trains. And then when they did arrive to some countries, they were told, you can't seek asylum here.

Annlyn: 26:36

You need to go back to your country. This is for Ukrainians, not for Africans. And so there, there were people who found out about it, in different countries and ended up, they, they started an African American or no African, everything's African American, African, student coalition or global coalition of Africans to help get those students out of the country and to help, raise money for some of them to get out of them, the bordering countries or as, countries that were providing asylum for Ukrainians, but not for them. So yeah, I noticed it. Of course.

Annlyn: 27:13

I actually I think I even looked it up to begin with. I wondered, what are the black people doing over there? I usually wonder that when there's a situation like that. And then I I found articles, but I had to look it up. It wasn't being reported.

Annlyn: 27:27

And then in my circle of friends, all my friends of color were sending messages to each other about it. It was posted on their stories and things like that. To be honest, we didn't discuss. We, we discussed it. We didn't really discuss it.

Annlyn: 27:43

Unless other people brought it up, especially in, maybe more our, our circle of friends where we're like, we're not sure if they're anything. We're just trying to make trouble. So we're just not gonna make a big deal about it. So we were like, we'll bring it up if it, you know, if it seems convenient to come like, it's a convenient time to bring it up and then kind of talk about it. But we didn't want to trouble the waters at the time.

Annlyn: 28:09

So we just spoke about it with people that were aware and maybe wanted to talk about it.

Derek: 28:14

Yeah. I was, I was just curious about that. You know, I wasn't sure kind of where you'd go with that, but, you know, with, with John, with you bringing up being kinda steeped in nationalism and such growing up, you know, one of the things that I've seen a whole lot in regard to how nationalism plays out is, you know, if you're if you're an ally with somebody, you can't really bring up the bad stuff. You know? The same thing with The United States.

Derek: 28:42

Like, we can't bring up the bad things that we've done because, you know, we're we're a benevolent nation. Mhmm. And so I didn't know if if, yeah, you had any pushback in in any of those discussions. But I guess you just you avoided having those discussions with people that you thought it might not go over well with.

Annlyn: 29:00

Mhmm. I'm not yeah. And I'm not sure, you know, we were even processing. I'm not sure why we did. It's not something that we always do.

Annlyn: 29:05

Like, we're not afraid to have the hard conversations. I think it was following so many intense discussions already that we were like, you know what? Let's just sit this one out. Yeah.

Derek: 29:17

Yeah. No. I get it.

Jon: 29:18

I think the takeaway, though, is that the conversation, or the awareness didn't, circulate, in you know, among the white community. Mhmm. It but certainly did not within the black community. Mhmm. And so it I just think that in itself maybe is a little bit telling, right, in the sense that, you know, I I think let me just say it this way.

Jon: 29:53

I think that the world you know, there's many people in the world that work on the situation in Ukraine and have sympathy for what they're experiencing. You know, maybe including Africa. But, and certainly, I think, European background countries, feel a real real sense of alliance with Ukraine. But, it's it's not so so natural to kind of notice, when the, you know, when it there's a subgroup that is also suffering. Mhmm.

Jon: 30:52

Because I guess it doesn't affect us. Right?

Annlyn: 30:55

Right. So I don't know if you, saw the coverage that Trevor Noah does that did on how the news even covered, the war in Ukraine. There's the way he he plays all the clips that the the news media is saying. This is happening in a developed nation and this is happening to Europeans. It's like almost like this shouldn't happen, in these countries.

Annlyn: 31:19

I I think even one clip said this is not some third world country. This is Ukraine. Like, Oh, it's okay if it happens in third world countries though. Like that type of, subconscious, like, and I'm sure that news anchor would be made aware and I, do you know what that statement sounds like? They might think about it, but that's, that's where I noticed it's the subconscious where, not blatantly, racist things that is actually more pervasive and more hurtful.

Derek: 31:49

Yeah. That's actually where I get my news over here. My US news is like, Trevor Noah, John Oliver, and,

Jon: 31:57

I don't know.

Derek: 31:57

It's it seems slightly less depressing to get it in comedic form. So, you know, speaking of of that, of just this this idea of how we're kind of oblivious to it, like, it's in our subconscious and it and it comes out. What like, specifically in regard to the church, because that's that's really, you know, I feel this the need to judge those inside the church, not not those outside the church. Like, I expect the world to be the world, but, it's really depressing when I feel like the church isn't being the church. Mhmm.

Derek: 32:36

What, where are maybe the the biggest blind spots that you see the church, the modern church in The United States as having? And, you know, why? I I know that it's partly conjectural and, really complex. But if you could summarize it at all, what are the blind spots, and and why do we have them? What's keeping us from seeing?

Annlyn: 33:08

Mhmm. Well, I think I know it's it's not so simple, but it's just the easiest way for me to explain what I've observed even just on my like, what I see on my social media is that we've forgotten the basics of a two kingdom theology. And to me, that's such such a important foundation. Like, if if as believers, we're all part of the kingdom of God and serving God and doing what he's calling us to do, then when things come up in the world, we're gonna deal with it the way Jesus did. And so even if I don't understand what it's like to be a person of color or even if I am confused about what is being said on both sides.

Annlyn: 33:53

If I apply the principle of, treating someone the way I wanna be treated, of submitting and laying my life down, all those basic, then I won't get wrapped up in the, but who did you vote for? But what party says that? And and I've just observed that, people are more concerned about political parties and the constitution than about souls. And I feel that if you're concerned about souls, if you're maintaining a two kingdom theology, some of these things, resolve themselves and that people experience your love. People can people can feel heard even if they're not completely understood.

Annlyn: 34:39

That it seems really basic, but it's it's missing for me. I've, one way I explain it to people in a in a very simple way is that, people in in in the circles that we're in, I'm usually a minority. Right? We're in more conservative Anabaptist circles. And I've had some friends and family, they wanna send me information about Candace Owens, but they never thought to ask me about how I feel personally.

Annlyn: 35:07

Like, and I I don't really watch her stuff. I don't and I'm not I'm not a political person at all. I'm not wrapped up in any party. But I find it interesting that if I say anything about my experience, I'm immediately, put into a certain camp. And I'm like, well, that's not what I'm saying.

Annlyn: 35:24

I'm actually just sharing my personal experience, but they can't hear past the political lines. And so I think that's just a perfect example of how we failed as a church. Like, if we're hearing what people share personally through political lines, so how can we how can we be a light to the rest of the world?

Jon: 35:44

Yeah. And, I'm sorry. Yeah. In in 2020, you know, we had the pandemic and then had lots of opinions about how you respond to that, this whole thing of mask wearing. And then you had, the situation in Minneapolis with Floyd's death and, and then just other kind of police violence situations.

Jon: 36:18

And and that that year, one of the things that became clearer for me well, one one thing that happened is I fell even more in love with the gospel. Mhmm. And it became even more meaningful to me, And I thought it already was very much so. But one of the things that stood out to me is I I realized that I think the reason the reason the church is a bit handicapped on some of these things, is because, boy, I didn't preformulate this. Let me let me work through this.

Jon: 37:10

So let me put it simply. The the gospel is not, our answer. And and and let me explain that. So when I when I talk about, a situation where there was police violence and, you know, I make the comment that, you know, this this is didn't need to happen. This shouldn't have happened.

Jon: 37:38

We should not continue to see black men die at the hand of a policeman. And then the response is, well, if they would just, stop resisting the law, if they would live above the law, you know, these things could be avoided. The problem is, you know, they're resisting arrest. And then you start to break that down. Right?

Jon: 38:12

And you push back on these situations, and you say, well but why is it that, you know, these that policemen seem to be confronting these situations more than they're confronting an equal situation with another person from a different race or a white person. And and you start having these conversations, you start realizing that when you start pushing back, people start feeling like maybe you're trying to tell them that they're racist. Well, I never was trying to say that, but you get the feeling that they're starting to feel that. So they gotta defend their position and their views. And and so or if if Anlyn would start talking about her experience as a black person, you know, they say, well, I never knew that.

Jon: 39:21

And, oh my, have I ever made you feel that way? Well, it's okay that they're concerned about that. But what I find is that, well, what what what if you did make her feel a certain way? What are we gonna do about it? Is it the end of the world?

Jon: 39:42

Is your life ending? Or is there healing? Is there forgiveness? Is there a way to to walk through this? And and so I'm I'm kind of taking a long roundabout way here to to say that I I I realize that within the white community, you know, we very quickly wanna say, I'm not racist, maybe even to the extent of saying racist doesn't exist anymore.

Jon: 40:10

And these problems are manufactured. They're just, you know, creating news content that you know, whatever the arguments may be. And I'm saying, I think that you are trying to ensure a position where you're not guilty. You know, we live in a in a our culture is primarily a guilt innocence culture. So if we're as long as we can maintain innocence, we obtain the the ultimate.

Jon: 40:41

Right? Some cultures would be driven more by the shame guilt or the or the shame honor of society. And so if I can maintain innocence, I have a chain to the highest moral. But, so so we're doing everything we can to protect our innocence. And so God forbid that I'm guilty in any way.

Jon: 41:05

And I'm saying, well, what if you what if you just would maybe what what if you actually discovered you are guilty? The gospel was there for that. Like, that's where we find can we go to Jesus and say, you know what? I think I have, maybe a little bit of bias or racism, or maybe I was unkind, or, you know, maybe I didn't have a heart to treat my enemy the way Jesus did. You know?

Jon: 41:34

I think I think for me, it comes back to the gospel, and and really embracing that.

Derek: 41:40

No. That that makes a lot of sense. Both of those things. I mean, the politicization, that's something that actually turned me to nonviolence. I I would have never gone there if it wasn't for the polarization of 2016 and that just helping me to see my community for what it really was, and sending me down a a really long rabbit trail of, studies.

Derek: 42:04

But, so, yeah, I completely agree with that. But then also what you said about the the trying to protect our perceived innocence at least, it just reminds me about so much the other things that I've I've been looking at at the moment, like the sexual abuse in the church. You look at Ravi Zacharias or you look at, the Southern Baptist Convention right now, and it's like they're trying to silence things. They're trying to silence things in the name of Christ. You know, we don't wanna tarnish his reputation.

Derek: 42:39

Like, we want the church to look pure, the church to look innocent. So in the name of of goodness and and righteousness, we we cover up sin, to to appear innocent. So, yeah, I think those those are two great answers to that question. So to sorry. Yeah.

Derek: 42:58

Yeah.

Annlyn: 42:59

Really short. I just like I like a summary, I think the willingness to be informed by our political preferences then rather than our personal relationships in the church is a big issue.

Derek: 43:13

Yeah. And in in regard to personal relationships, I know for me personally, it it really wasn't until I started to get to know, more people of color and and various backgrounds that I started to to see things. Like, when I started reading black authors, and historical works and and, things like that, I I was like, oh, this this isn't these aren't just issues that have popped up in 2016. You know, Du Bois was talking about, like, some of the very same things that people are talking about today. And it's it's just, yeah, absolutely amazing.

Derek: 43:51

The thing that was that was the strongest for me was I I have not talked to a, a black person yet in the last four or five years since I started asking this question who has not had a a negative encounter with the police. That just blows my mind. My my parents' neighbor is actually he's a he's a he was a police officer and for many, many years. And I asked him. He's a black black man.

Derek: 44:22

And I said I said, so you're a police officer, and you're you're a black man. Like, so can you tell me, like, what's your like, have you ever had any negative encounters with the police? He's like, oh, yeah. He's like, a lot. And I was like, for, like, silly things, not just, like, speeding tickets.

Derek: 44:41

He's like, yeah. They they pull me over for, like, you know, a light being out or not using a signal when I did or some other things. And he's like, I've it's he's like, yeah. It's all over the place. And that was that was amazing for me to hear that coming from a black man who is also a police officer because he's he's walking in both of those worlds, and, he's able to kinda see see that.

Jon: 45:06

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Derek: 45:08

So maybe, to to end, final question. It's really easy, I think, for me, at least, to get into these topics and become really depressed because it just seems like it's hopeless. Do you have any words of hope for, specifically the church, you know, in in regard to maybe some things that, we are doing well or maybe some resources that we have at our fingertips that if we we just access, like, we could turn things around? The gospel. I know that that's one.

Annlyn: 45:41

Yes. The gospel is definitely first first and foremost. I think that what the things that I've experienced, I've done well in the last few years is even even when we do mess up because we will and we're human is, having people come back and say, I'm sorry. I didn't know. And I still don't know, but I care.

Annlyn: 46:02

I've had people message me that I haven't spoken to in years sending me messages like that. And that, that really touched me. I think that's something that, I've heard from other people too, other people of color who've said like, just a random person reached out to me and said, I just want to say I'm sorry. And I think, that's something that the church has done well at. Like the humility to go back and say, I'm sorry, I didn't know and I could have done better or I still don't know, but I, I, I want to, I want to be better, that type of thing.

Annlyn: 46:33

And just like kind of that that's specifically on racial issues, but I think, politically, I've been seeing more and more believers say, call each other out. Let's let's keep the first things first. Like, don't be afraid to call that out in each other and say, don't get wrapped up in that. There's other ways that we can care for people. You know, Roe v Wade is very controversial thing going on right now.

Annlyn: 46:59

We can get wrapped up in the politics or we could say, where where's the closest single mom that I can help? Where's the, closest planned parenthood that I can pray outside of? Like, I just think I've seen, I've seen people say, let's stop the talk and let's let's do action. That's what the early church did. And I've been encouraged by that and, wanting to do more of that myself.

Annlyn: 47:23

Like, I don't wanna get caught up in talk. I wanna do do loving things. And I've seen that.

Jon: 47:32

Yeah. So I think, in the difficult conversations and all of the, you know, kind of, unsettled dust, it's hard to find your way sometimes. And, but I think the the silver lining of it is that the the spirit uses that to to bring together people that can advance the cause of Christ. And so I we're encouraged, to continue to see that. And, so, you know, I think Alan kind of touched on it, but just to say it a little more specifically, I think we need to talk face to face.

Jon: 48:16

Yeah. Okay. So, you know, in terms of just, if you want a resource, stop get off of social media and go talk to somebody. Yeah. Because that the social media, I think, it may not be the cause of, polarization, but it fuels it.

Jon: 48:34

Mhmm. And so, and so we've been encouraged to we've gone into communities where we're like, oh, what are we getting into? Like, are we gonna

Annlyn: 48:44

make it

Jon: 48:45

out? And then we got there and it's like, wow, these people are really cool. I mean, really kind. And, because, you know, we related, face to face. I think that's really important.

Jon: 48:59

And then also touched on it, but I've just seen that churches or individuals that really do have a clear identity in Christ and his kingdom, and clearly disassociate themselves with earthly kingdoms, are generally more equipped to navigate racial and cross cultural challenges. Mhmm. And, than those that align or identify with with earthly political positions or agendas. And so, in in the spirit, I believe the spirit is is is continuing to bring those people together and and and doing that work in people's hearts. So I think we can be encouraged by that.

Jon: 49:37

In terms of, like, like, you know, like a book that he says, we found that, he's on a phone. There's an author that, a writer that I think he he has a a really you know, I don't know if I can, put a stamp on all everything he says, but we've just found him to be, a voice that can speak for the black community and and for the church.

Derek: 50:02

Can you repeat that? Because your audio cut out right as you said the the name.

Jon: 50:06

Sure. Yeah. Esau McCauley.

Derek: 50:09

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He wrote, Reading While Black. Is that okay.

Annlyn: 50:15

And there's a really great, he was interviewed by the Holy Post talking about, believers and war and just political things. I can't remember the title of it, but if you put type in Esa McCauley and the Holy Post, that was a very good interview that really summarizes a lot of what we're talking about.

Jon: 50:35

K. Good

Derek: 50:36

recommendation. Yeah. I enjoyed enjoyed, his book. I only read that one. Mhmm.

Derek: 50:41

But I I thought it was really good.

Jon: 50:43

Mhmm. Yeah.

Derek: 50:45

Well, I that's that's all that I have for you. And I appreciate you taking time out of your your schedule to, to chat with me. And, yeah. Anything else that you wanna, add?

Annlyn: 51:01

No. We, I guess one of the big thing that we always like to tell people when we do talks like this, we we love to go to communities and we love to do the face to face. We don't really have very much of a a social media presence. We're not opposed to it. I'd say kudos to the people who have the, the mental capacity to do that, but we, we enjoy face to face.

Annlyn: 51:23

So if anyone wants to email or chat or have us come visit, we enjoy those face to face interactions.

Derek: 51:31

Okay. And I will I'll put, resources in the the show notes. So you're pretty easy to find, your email and everything? Okay.

Jon: 51:40

Yeah. And I would just, say that we have a lot to be grateful for. Mhmm. Starting to preach through Revelation, and, there will be every tribe and nation and tongue will worship the throne. Mhmm.

Jon: 51:55

So there's a great future ahead of us.

Derek: 51:59

Awesome. Well, thanks again, and you all have a wonderful rest of your day.

Annlyn: 52:03

Thank you.

Derek: 52:05

That's all for now. So peace. And because I'm a pacifist, when I say it, I mean it. This podcast is a part of the Kingdom Outpost network. Please check out the links below to find other great podcasts and content related to nonviolence and kingdom living.