Derek: 00:27

Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. Today's episode is an interview with Kyle Gunn. Kyle and I attended the same conservative Christian college together, and I thought his unique life experience as a black man in a conservative Christian setting would provide for some good discussion on racism and propaganda. We cover a lot of ground in this episode, but there are two particular concepts I want you to listen out for. First, Kyle helps us to see that complexity and nuance are vital for undercutting propaganda.

Derek: 01:02

We can often tell when something is propaganda by its lopsided nature. If something is portrayed as all good or all bad, propaganda is likely at play. Our history education should take a broad look at people and events in order for us to see history from all sides and to hear all voices. Hearing a diversity of voices is essentially the geolocation of veracity. It's the triangulation of truth.

Derek: 01:30

I'm certainly not going to trust some historical dude's autobiography to paint a whole picture, nor am I going to trust a nation's story about their founders when that same nation deifies them in statues and artwork. I'm going to need more than a one-sided look at something to understand it in-depth. So nuance and diversity are important in undermining propaganda. Second, Kyle astutely points out that propaganda is double pronged. While we focus mostly on how propaganda positively inculcates beliefs into a target community, Kyle points out that propaganda can also influence the opposing community, the community against which the propaganda is levied, particularly if that community is oppressed or is a minority community.

Derek: 02:19

Now this is a concept that we saw in our last season as well, as those who are abused are disparaged and propagandized by their abuser, and they may actually come to internalize some of those falsehoods as truth. The same is true about racism. Racial propaganda may have largely been wielded as a tool to get whites to think poorly of blacks, but it can also have the effect of getting blacks to think poorly about themselves or about others in their community. So as you listen to this episode, keep your ears open for these concepts. Now let's get to the interview with Kyle.

Derek: 02:57

I wanted to talk to somebody who had similar experiences because I know that going to our college, there weren't all that many, black students there. And so I know that you kind of have have similar experiences to me, but from a black perspective, which I wanted to get to. So before we get into that, would you mind introducing yourself and just, you know, telling us a little bit about yourself?

Kyle: 03:20

Yeah. Well, first of all, it's an honor to to be on this podcast. So, I've done a couple of them, and I like to pretend that I'm podcast famous, which I'm not. But just going back and listening to some of your episodes, it's I the first thing I what I had was imposter syndrome. I was like, why is he asking me to be on this podcast, you know, and how you deliberate and your knowledge and just how much you, like, research before you just spew something.

Kyle: 03:53

And I made a conscious effort to think to to to try to listen to how many times you said, I think or I feel, and it's, like, very rarely. It's basically, here's some data. Here's something I'm processing, and I'm gonna share it instead of, like, what I think and this, that, and the other. Not necessarily bad, but I was really appreciative of the stuff that you present. But who I am.

Kyle: 04:14

Yeah. Like I said, I'm Kyle Kyle Gunn, and I'm one of seven kids. And the Lord saved me at an early age. I was five when the Lord captured my heart, and I'm one of the few I think I think I was just blessed that the Lord has given me a strong sense of my salvation. I've never doubted.

Kyle: 04:40

And I know doubt is a real thing, but for me, I've been blessed with just always knowing, when I you know, when the Lord saved me. So five, and then I was homeschooled all the way up to ninth grade, then I went to a public high school. And, you know, like I said, I'm 37 now. So high school back then was a whole lot different. We didn't have cell phones and, but, I was a popular kid in high school.

Kyle: 05:06

Like and everyone knew as a Christian, I started, you know, to see you at the pool. I had bible studies, and, it was just a lot different. It was a great experience. I tend to be outgoing, so being homeschooled, even though I had a lot of brothers and sisters, was kinda like, something more. So I've I say I have the best I have all of it.

Kyle: 05:24

So first grade, I actually went to a Christian school. Second grade and ninth grade, homeschool. And a public high school. And then I went to a Christian university, although they would say universities aren't Christian, they're Christ centered. So, I went to a Christ centered university, Cedarville University.

Kyle: 05:43

You know, that's how I got to know you. We were the same, you know, the same college. And then after, you know, after college, I did a few odd jobs. Couldn't really find my way. Went to school for, bible, college for bible.

Kyle: 05:58

Couldn't really find my way. And, you know, recently, you know, I started this job here. I do dispatch now for a a trucking company. Absolutely love it. And, I'm married, been married for seven years.

Kyle: 06:12

I have two beautiful kids. They are four and two. And, you know, on this part we're gonna on this podcast, I know that you we're gonna just say honest things. So, you know, my wife is white, so I have, mixed kids, and they're absolutely gorgeous. Everyone knows that.

Kyle: 06:30

So it's just like mixed kids have the best of both worlds, I feel like, a a daughter and a and a son. We I think part of my who I am also, you're informed by what you go through, both the good and the bad. So we suffered, greatly, you know, through several miscarriages to have the kids that we have. So that element of of suffering and pain allows me to, I think, understand a lot better and differently and to interact with people who have gone through the same thing because it's incredibly lonely. You know, I think we got you said mentioned earlier, you know, I had a, like, a I do, like, a blog where I post during Black History Month.

Kyle: 07:16

And I think that's what kind of, opened up this discussion. So I I I really enjoy history, specifically history that intersects black, black American experience, with the larger Americans experience. So that's a little bit me in a nutshell. Do you have any if I you want to know something, ask me. So I'll help you with you.

Derek: 07:41

Yeah. No. That's that's exactly why I wanted to talk to you because you have you have a very, informed knowledge about black history. But at the same time, you've you've gone through very conservative circles. And so, I think that that's kind of a a rare thing because a lot of times those voices are are shut down or, you know, people are skeptical of them.

Derek: 08:04

So I I wanted to to be able to get your perspective from from somebody in in those circles. And I I talked to a wide variety of people. So Mhmm. So, anyway, let let's, let's kinda start at at, the beginning of of kind of what brought you to my mind. We went to the same college together.

Derek: 08:21

It was a Mhmm. A very conservative, Christian college, very white college. And it was it was so white, and I I vividly remember that, and I don't know if you remember this. You probably do more vividly than I do, but there was a worship leader who wore a rebel flag T shirt in the front of chapel one day. Do you remember that?

Derek: 08:43

Mhmm.

Kyle: 08:44

I actually don't remember that. When you like, I don't remember that because I think that when events like that happen like, honestly, they happen so much that you kind of don't let them affect you. Like, I remember it slightly, but not vividly. I remember seeing it, and I, like, I do with the flag, man. I was just like, that's weird.

Kyle: 09:10

But yeah.

Derek: 09:11

Yeah. For for me, I and this is this is sad in retrospect, but the reason I remember it is I was like, because I think somebody emailed a complaint to, leadership, and they just profusely apologized. And I was like, that's so ridiculous. People making a big deal out of somebody wearing a flag. Because in my mind Mhmm.

Derek: 09:32

I I came from, you know, farm country, Pennsylvania. And in my Christian school, you had you had these redneck guys who'd have trucks and listen to country music and have rebel flags on their trucks. And I you just you don't think anything of it. And so I was Mhmm. I was just thinking, why are why are people making such a big deal about this this stupid flag?

Derek: 09:55

It's just a, you know, a flag that people who listen to country music like. And so I I was oblivious, absolutely oblivious to how that came across to, to at least some, if not a lot of people in the the black community there. Mhmm. So maybe you could start off our discussion on propaganda by talking about a little bit about some of the the racial propaganda, whether that's images, phrases, Mhmm. Actions that that are infused into our culture, especially the conservative Christian culture that Mhmm.

Derek: 10:29

We might not realize.

Kyle: 10:31

Right. So, you know, when I was thinking about this, like, when you were talking about propaganda and you laid out beautifully, like, what it is, who's it works on. And like I said, I was reeling because, you know, I'm an educated, intelligent, smart black man, and you're like, well, it works on you. That's the primary demographic. I was like, no.

Kyle: 10:54

I know propaganda. That's that's not true. And then the more I sat back and thought about it, the more I was just like, you know what? You're right. That's how that's how it works.

Kyle: 11:03

And propaganda, I think, is not so much now about beating you over the head with a club, dropping leaflets down, you know, during World War two. You know, like propaganda would they honestly thought, hey. Why don't we drop down condoms so that they think that we're more endowed than they are, and then they're we'll cower. Like, that was an idea that they had. That's not so much propaganda anymore.

Kyle: 11:26

Propaganda is subtle, and it's supposed to be, because you need to buy into it, and you need to realize it, and you need to enjoy it and love it. The first thing I thought of was, like, the best one of the best propaganda machines I think ever is Apple. You know, Apple has so innovated our culture that we have a demographic of people that will firmly believe that there's no better technology than Apple. And we have created a culture that hates green bubbles just because that propaganda has you know, that's our enemy. It's like, get an iPhone.

Kyle: 11:58

You know what I mean? And I'm fully aware. Like, I have adopted that, and I know when I'm being propagandized by Apple. Like, I have the the AirPods. I have the watch, and I have the phone, and you know?

Kyle: 12:12

So that was just a little aside there about propaganda. But some of the the imagery that we see and some people don't really understand it, I would say, see one that's more recent. So that the whole uncle Ben and Jemima, not scandal, but that whole saga of, like, why people are angry and why some weren't. And people are like, well, we're honoring them. You know, mostly white people would say that.

Kyle: 12:38

Me, personally, I had I had chosen long ago not to buy those products from, you know, Aunt Jemima, first of all, because I don't think it's that good. You know? But secondly, it was the imagery. You know? They were like, well, she got a job and she was able to provide support.

Kyle: 12:55

It's like, yeah. But the whole mammy archetype figure, like, he's took that from a minstrel show that he watched. Like, he saw the like, a character in blackface playing an Aunt Jemima figure and took that and put it on his box and labeled it because, you know, that's where black people belong in the kitchen. So those are some that's an a a huge imagery, and I also kinda you know, with the whole Land O'Lakes butter, you know, and be like, well, you're erasing history. It's like, no.

Kyle: 13:29

We're not erasing history. History is still there. We still have powerful devices that can search anything. Like, and, you know, I would kinda say, some of them more phrasing that is that's propagandizes, because propaganda always has truth in it. Right?

Kyle: 13:51

And it it has to in order for it to be believed and perpetuated. So one of them is that calling, you know, muscular women manly. Like our former first lady, Michelle Obama, was often called a man because she, you know, she had sculpted biceps, and she was in shape and she was fit. You know, the Williams sister often are called, you know, manly. And and it's like you can have the same type, you know, white woman the same way, you know, but they are elegant and demure and graceful.

Kyle: 14:28

But, you know, calling a, you know, a muscular woman manly, that's something that has been propagated. Because here's the truth in it. When you if you go to a bodybuilding show, everyone is trying to get darker because the muscles look better under the lights. That it just pops a little bit better. That's just because of coloring.

Kyle: 14:49

It's nothing not racism or anything. It's just that's what what it is. So when you have, you have kids, you watch them develop, a black kid will often look more muscular just because of just that's the makeup of of the body, which entail leads into, actual, like, racist policies. So did you know a kid, black children often seem seven or eight years older than they actually are? So let's say you have an 11 year old.

Kyle: 15:25

Right? And he let's say he's cutting up or acting up or doing whatever. A police officer rolls up. He will see that kid as 18, as an adult, simply because the makeup of his body, that's just the way his body is. And so muscles develop and they look different.

Kyle: 15:41

They look enhanced or whatever what have you. And so he will often be seen older and thus treated as such even though it's an 11 year old kid or a 10 year old kid, just a boy. Same thing hap you know? Story after story, Tamir Rice, you know, had a toy gun, rolled up, shot him. You know?

Kyle: 16:01

I think, you know, being considered loud, those these are phrasings, or asking us, oh, you can probably dance really good, or you can probably sing. Just kind of those those are all propagated that this is what we can do alone. Let's see. Racism, like, early on that we know is is black based. Everyone can spot that.

Kyle: 16:25

Even, you know, watch old Bugs Bunny cartoons. And you're just like, did I see what I just yes. You did. So those are, you know, some of the things that I've I've noticed. And now it's a little bit more subtle.

Kyle: 16:41

So here's the subtleness of it. We that is pervasive. We had a a state senator in Ohio who's act who is a doctor in emergency room said, maybe COVID nineteen affects the black community because they don't wash their hands as much. This this is a this is a state senator who said this out loud. You know?

Kyle: 17:06

Not it was where he said that verb like, to somebody else, and then you're just like, how can this be? And then and there's still a level of of doctors who actually think, you know, black skin is tougher or thicker, you know, and therefore, they don't feel pain as much. During the opioid crisis, if we if you remember that, the large numbers of them were not part of the black community. Why? Because doctors actually prescribe pain meds less because they had the belief that was propagated that black people get addicted more.

Kyle: 17:42

So the opioid crisis wasn't as effective, and maybe that's a maybe that's could be construed as a good thing. But it was because they weren't being prescribed pain meds. So you had a whole a large population of groups of people in pain because doctors believe that they were addicted more, and they would use them to sell.

Derek: 18:00

Well, not yeah. Not not to mention the the the response to, you know, the the crack epidemic. Oh, we need to we Right. Throw those people in jail, and then you get the opioid epidemic. Oh, these poor people.

Derek: 18:12

Yeah.

Kyle: 18:12

We need

Derek: 18:12

to to help them.

Kyle: 18:13

Yeah. Yeah. It's just and, later on, we'll probably get into, generalization versus individualizing certain things. Yeah. I think I kinda lost my train of thought, but I think that's what I was kinda going with to settle.

Kyle: 18:29

Oh, also, so COVID nineteen. Now further on, monkeypox is a huge thing. And there's subtlety in there that it, you know, originated in Africa. Monkeys are often back in con you know, largely linked, you know, to black people. You You know what I mean?

Kyle: 18:50

They were called monkeys and apes and gorillas and savages and things like that. So even the term monkeypox to me is just like I cringe at that at that terminology because I know because of propaganda, it's gonna conjure up images in certain people about who gets monkeypox, you know, and which can lead to divide with, I don't want them living next to me. I don't want Martha. You know what I mean? Property values.

Kyle: 19:18

And that's simply just for the the term monkeypox. And we had, you know, a prominent person continually over and over referred to COVID nineteen as a Chinese food, It's a Chinese virus. And there was a lot of Asian hate and Asian, racism racism because of that. Just the just the terminology of what we use that people don't understand is, like, we've been propagated to propagandized to to view it that way. So and even if the person is not necessarily using that way, we're we're just calling it monkeypox.

Kyle: 19:54

Some of those image that will pop up that you have to guard against, you know, are not are not healthy.

Derek: 20:01

Yeah. And and what's what's really ironic to me is that the conservative crowd who would say that, well, you know, he didn't he didn't mean it that way. Language doesn't matter is Mhmm. They're like, I'm not gonna call him, they, them. They're like, language matter matters a whole lot.

Kyle: 20:16

Right. Yeah.

Derek: 20:18

Yes. It matters a whole lot when, you know, when it's an issue that you recognize, but when it's an issue that you don't wanna have to deal with, then language doesn't matter at all.

Kyle: 20:28

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Derek: 20:29

So that's that's a a pretty good list of of starters, of, you know, some of the propaganda that's out there. Mhmm. For me, you know, if we would have had this conversation ten years ago, I I would have been probably largely blind to it. And, you know, when I look back at my at what kind of shifted it for me, it was it was around the time of Eric Garner and, you know, the time of Ferguson, Missouri, when when all those things started to happen. Mhmm.

Derek: 21:03

It it was a decade after I graduated from college, and and I remember arguing with my wife when, when I was just telling her, like, I mean, it's it's sad. It's tragic. But, I mean, like, I understand why the cop did what they did. Like, I mean, I'm I'm not a big guy if if somebody who's six foot or taller is walking towards me and has any muscle mass whatsoever. Mhmm.

Derek: 21:31

Mhmm. I'm gonna be scared. Like, how do I know if if he's gonna keep coming? How do I know if he has a knife? How do I know if he's a gun?

Derek: 21:37

He reaches for his waistband. How do I know what he's gonna do? Like, I understand from the cops' perspective. And, but she kept pushing back, and she she was like, well, yeah. Okay.

Derek: 21:48

You might be able to understand from the cops' perspective, but nobody's trying to understand from the the black person's perspective. Like, do you think he has a reason to be scared of the police, to be scared that if he submits, he's gonna be harmed or he's Mhmm. Yeah. What we know about, the criminal justice system and the the conviction rate, you know Mhmm. If if you get booked, you're pretty much gonna have to cop a plea deal, in order to to get out of there because you're you're pretty much guilty, or you're gonna sit in jail forever, or you're gonna go through all these expenses.

Derek: 22:23

So, it was it was when I finally started to look at the other side, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna start listening to black people. I'm gonna start talking to them. I'm going to start reading people. And and when I started reading black authors, that 100% just absolutely transformed my perspective. Because you can go all the way back to, like, Du Bois, and and and he talks about some of the same issues that we have today.

Derek: 22:57

And you look at police police violence. It's not a new thing. I think it's a new thing because I'm not just hearing about it now, but it's not a new thing. So, anyway, you know, listening to the the the black perspective is what, you know, ultimately helped me to start to transform. So I'd like for for you to talk about how important, diverse stories and voices are

Kyle: 23:21

Mhmm.

Derek: 23:21

To to cut through the historically white perspective and white propaganda. And And what are some voices that maybe you recommend? Mhmm. And and how does doing that cut through propaganda?

Kyle: 23:34

Mhmm. Yeah. I it's vitally important, I think. Because as we talk about, as you've been talking through this season of propaganda, propaganda likes neat tidy boxes. It likes to be able to put something in and categorize it.

Kyle: 23:54

It needs the buy in of a large group of people. It needs silence. It needs to be pretty. It needs not to have any pushback. That's what propaganda is.

Kyle: 24:03

And so removal of diverse stories and voices, you get your perfect echo chamber. You get the feedback loop. You get every the gratification that you want and you desire. Now that our natural tendency to want to categorize things In and of itself is not a bad thing. I think that's fundamentally how we were created.

Kyle: 24:25

You know, we're both believers, so a lot of my worldview is going to be shaped by my belief, right, by Christianity. So one of the thing is being a created being, god put order into chaos. Then he you know, Adam was charged to name all the the animals. So he had to categorize them. He had to put them in, you know, in boxes or he had to tie them.

Kyle: 24:50

So that end up that's not bad. That's not a bad thing, because that's I you know, this fundamentally gets back to how we were creative beings. And we know that our brains tend to want to like, our brains take shortcuts. When we see things, they will just put them where they're supposed to go and kinda fill that in. And so when we have, no diverse stories, it's easy and simple and it's categorized for us.

Kyle: 25:17

Okay. This is what I know. And, you know, even going to, you know, all you know, mostly white college and, and things of that nature, it was very rare, you know, to have diverse voices. You know, there's a couple years ago, something went around Facebook asking, who was your first black teacher? You know?

Kyle: 25:41

And it was like, if you didn't grow up in that space, you're like, I think one time a teacher's aide, what came you know? And it's very hard to realize, like, oh, wow. I didn't have any type of other input. And we know that diverse stories and, like, you know, I have a natural bent tendency. I love history.

Kyle: 26:02

Right? So and we know that history is written by the victor. So, of course, our American history is going to have a level of veneer on it. It's gonna have that. It's gonna have a gloss.

Kyle: 26:13

It's gonna have rough edges, you know, kind of, shown down and things like that. There's nothing well, yeah. There is something wrong with that. But that's how what how history is made. So diverse stories actually open that up.

Kyle: 26:30

You know, it opens like you said, when you started reading black authors, actually open up your mind to, wow, I never would have known this if I didn't choose to read this. Also, I think the perp the diverse stories cuts off or doesn't allow us to categorize categorize things as other, as them, or they always, or the reason is because a, b, and c, or speaking into something that you're an outsider just looking in. Doesn't mean that, you know, your voice is not heard. For instance, like, I can speak and say, you know, I think drug abuse is not healthy. It's not good for you.

Kyle: 27:11

I've never done drugs. You know, I'm not a drug addict, but I can observe and say something about it. But sometimes saying something about things that you don't truly understand or have put placed yourself into and we see that this this happened with our our lord and savior Jesus Christ. You know, I'm not trying to use that, you know, perfect phrasing. But Jesus, what did he do?

Kyle: 27:33

He left the right hand of the father to do what? He actually put on flesh, dwelt among us. He didn't have to do that, but he chose to. You know? And he was tempted just like us, experienced hunger just like us.

Kyle: 27:50

He cried just like us. It wasn't as if you were just speaking into a situation. It's like, y'all y'all need Jesus. Y'all need me. But I'm not really going to do anything about like, I'm not gonna insert myself into that situation.

Kyle: 28:06

Does that mean we need to all go live live in the hood? No. Not at all. But at the same time, opening yourself up, and I think that's what diverse stories do. Do you know how, you know, how amazing is to have TV shows like blackish?

Kyle: 28:22

You know? Just simply because it highlights, you know, a section of, society that it it goes against the narrative. So propaganda is also about feeding a narrative. Correct? So it goes against that.

Kyle: 28:35

You know, that's why Black Panther did so well because it finally showed a nation that wasn't considered third world all the time, and it was fictitious. But why is Wakanda so highlighted? Why did that movie do so well? Because it reversed the narrative that, you know, black people are inferior and that they're subjugated and they should be, and they never have things right or they can't be successful. So I think that's what diverse story diverse stories do, and I think it's good for us to have those, to hear those where even if you behemoth, you know, do disagree with it.

Kyle: 29:13

You know? Hearing other stories, voices allows you, I think, to be a better person and a better Christian. Like, Jesus wasn't always, you know, in Galilee. You know, I need to go to Samaria. And he heard another perspective.

Kyle: 29:35

You know, the story that, you know, that Jesus engaging with a woman anyway, then a Samaritan woman, then a woman who had been divorced and remarried and was living with like, all three of those things are taboo in that culture. He engaged with her, You know? And she engaged back and then, you know, she has been propagandized about where do we worship. And he spoke into that. He spoke through it.

Kyle: 30:03

He spoke, against it. And I think that we as Christ followers, it behooves us to to do that instead of just, like, well, these are our theologians. You know? So I hope that answered some of the some of the questions that you have.

Derek: 30:20

Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually a a a good lead in to my next one because and I almost I'm scared to ask this question. And I mean No. Ask it.

Derek: 30:30

You've you've listened, and and you know the outline of my season so far. Mhmm. I love the church, but I also I, it hurts me to think about the the state of the church a lot of times. So I wanna know, has your experience with the white Christian community, the the white Christian church, been any different than your experience with the broader white community, or are they are they fairly indistinguishable? Like, does the does the church Mhmm.

Derek: 31:00

Cut through the lies of racism better, worse, or or about the same? And then why do you think it is that way?

Kyle: 31:08

Yeah. I mean, that's a doozy of a question. So I I wanna go back and speak to, my experience here. So even within the church, I think we we don't do a good job of when we when we preach the gospel, for instance, like, sin is often termed as black. So even as a young kid, I often thought that God hated me, the person, because I was black.

Kyle: 31:43

And it was, you know, largely because of how it was presented and inscribed. Now do I think some of the passive were purposely saying, you know, you, black people, are actual sin embodying that? No. But we have to be cautious and careful of how we even say certain things. You know what I mean?

Kyle: 32:03

So the idea that me being a stain or a sin, I felt it was me. You know? So within the Christian community, you can go and Google images like racist images. And oftentimes, the KKK and full regalia are meaning in churches. You know?

Kyle: 32:26

You know, signs that say that Jesus saves, but not the nigger. You know? Like, we do you know, you're not welcome here. And I remember as I remember as a kid, and I asked my my mother about this one day. We were traveling, and I was young so that details are hazy, but I do remember this.

Kyle: 32:43

We went and we sat down in church. And a little while later, I Usher came and whispered in my dad's ear, and my mom looked down the aisle and said, hey. We gotta go. With you know, we gotta go. So we got up, and we left.

Kyle: 32:59

And I was like, mom, why do we have to leave? And we're just meeting at church. Later on, she told me that they said that the scripture forbids being unequally yoked, and then they stopped. So can they consider any of the others worshiping together with black people. And you and I know that is the most egregious disrespect to that verse ever because they just stopped at unequally yoked.

Kyle: 33:25

Had nothing they they didn't read it in context. They didn't read the rest of the verse. And they applied that to people who did not look like them. That happened to me. And so I would say, how has the church dealt with it?

Kyle: 33:39

I not very well. You know? And I love the church. And I say this all the time. This is one of my one of the things I say, that the gospel is more powerful than what man tries to do to hinder it.

Kyle: 33:58

So there is no reason why a black person would ever be a Christian just on the on the surface. Because what has been perpetrated in the name of God to, quote, my people. Right? Why on earth would I ever be a Christian or serve or worship this God that you claim gave you the right to own a person with a soul. But in order to get rid of that, you need something neat and tidy and said that black people don't have souls.

Kyle: 34:30

You know what I mean? So why on earth would I be a Christian? Well, it's because of the gospel's more power. It breaks down barriers. And I and so were we you were gonna say something?

Derek: 34:41

Yeah. I I was gonna say, so you say that the gospel breaks down barriers, but it doesn't seem like it does. So

Kyle: 34:48

so so like,

Derek: 34:50

what's up with that?

Kyle: 34:52

I would say I mean, it it does break down barriers in a, spiritual sense. But a lot of times, we'll stop there. For instance, you know, we just need to preach the gospel. We just need to preach the gospel. Yeah.

Kyle: 35:07

But that dude's hungry. You know? Like, Jesus didn't, he just didn't preach the gospel. He also fed the the the 5,000 with women and kids. Right?

Kyle: 35:17

He just didn't just do one or the other. It was both. So the gospel reached my heart because I saw the God behind the love, nevertheless Christ is preached. You know, I saw behind that. And there and there were good people that did share the gospel.

Kyle: 35:35

And then second of all, I think so we'll kinda move a little bit forward. So, historically, we can say, man, that was that was really a bad time. Now, let's just not talk about it. Don't talk about it too much. You know?

Kyle: 35:49

Because you'll be, like, one of those. You'll be woke, and we're tired of hearing about it. And then everything and anything becomes considered woke just if you talk about injustice. You know? And I'm just like, how did how and why is seeking justice something that is mandated, walk humbly, you know, do good and seek just how has that become something that's woke, like, or bad?

Kyle: 36:19

And partly, it can be because if we're only looking at the temporal, that doesn't add and not look at the eternal. Then the idea of just justice here and now does fix some problems. It dresses it up, but it doesn't fix the eternal problem, ultimate justice. Right? But if you just only seek ultimate justice and you forget the injustice that's happening on a temporal level here on Earth, then you're just like you stay where you are.

Kyle: 36:49

You continue to suffer this injustice, but one day, it will all be made right. It's like, no. I think we're called to reverse the effects of the fall. I think we want to to work on those injustice. So that's from the Christian perspective.

Kyle: 37:05

And I keep saying, like, all this I don't hate the church. I'm not into sheep bashing. I love I love the church. I'm part of her. You know?

Kyle: 37:13

I'm part of the bride of Christ. The larger white community, I would say, has handled it a lot better. And I'm wracking my brain when this question was pros, like, why? Shouldn't it be the opposite? But somehow, I don't think it is from from my experience that, you know, the one those who don't call themselves believers have oftentimes been better at cutting through the propaganda and the lies and racism and even acknowledging it or doing some way to fix it for lack of of better words.

Kyle: 37:56

And I don't know why that is. And I think sometimes it's okay to not have all the answer. Like, I don't know why, but I wish it weren't so. And you know, the time and time again, like, the church has gotten things really wrong, you know, really wrong. But there are things that that we get right.

Kyle: 38:16

But for some reason, I don't know why. You know, we have it's not it hasn't been as well as what I would like to have it be as a Christ follower.

Derek: 38:28

Yeah. That that's, that's acceptable to not know, and and I think it's good to acknowledge that.

Kyle: 38:34

Mhmm.

Derek: 38:37

Alright. So I wanna move on to, I I think, the part that I was looking forward to the most because, every year, you post, something every day during Black History Month, a a different story. I don't know. Do you do different ones every year, or do you

Kyle: 38:56

some, yeah, some get recycled, but I like to try to choose different ones every year. Or sometimes I'll focus on a theme. But, yeah, it just highlights black history during the month of February.

Derek: 39:12

Yeah. And I think I think uncovering history important because it it it's those diverse voices, but then it's also for me, you know, books like, The Color of Law was extremely helpful for me because it's okay. He's just dispassionately looking at Mhmm. Here's an event. Here's an event.

Derek: 39:32

Here's an event. Here's an event.

Kyle: 39:33

And it's

Derek: 39:34

like, well, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to say, wow. That's a lot of events like this. What's the common denominator? And you can you can start piecing things together yourself Yeah. Just from just from dispassionate facts.

Derek: 39:47

So I I love your Black History Month. Before I ask you a question about it, does it ever strike you I'm sure it has, but does it ever strike you that it's a little bit ironic that Black History Month is the shortest month of the year that they picked? Do you think that's a conspiracy? They they picked the two months of twenty eight days?

Kyle: 40:06

No. Not at all. Okay. Not at all. I'll tell you I'll tell you why.

Kyle: 40:09

It's because, Lincoln and Frederick Douglass birth birthdays happened in the February. So long before there was actually a Black History Month, you know, blacks would actually, you know, honor and celebrate that week because, you know, as you know, Abraham Lincoln, emancipation, proclamation of the slaves. Right? Frederick Douglass, huge in the abolition movement. So Frederick Douglass, I think his birthday, he celebrated on the fourteenth.

Kyle: 40:39

I believe Lincoln's birthday was on the twelfth. So it may it makes sense because it was actually called Negro Week, when it was first instituted and adopted. And that was a term that they used back then for black people. Right? So it was called it was just a week at first, and then it just expanded to the whole month.

Kyle: 40:56

So I don't know. It's it wasn't it's not a conspiracy. It's not like, okay. You just get twenty eight days. Maybe we'll give you twenty nine, every now and then.

Kyle: 41:03

We'll call it leap year. You know what I mean? No. So it's not a conspiracy. It was just lit you know, two of the one two of the greatest figures in history.

Kyle: 41:12

Their birthdays coincided in February.

Derek: 41:14

Okay. That's that's that's really good to know because when you start going down, you know, different, rabbit holes about, government Right. And and racism and stuff, you, it's easy to be really cynical about motives

Kyle: 41:27

Oh, yeah. And everything. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Derek: 41:31

Okay. So here's my my first question in relation to that. You know, heritage and tradition, we would say are important things, and and that's part of the reason that that we celebrate Black History Month. You know, that there's there's heritage and tradition that's wrapped up in there that we we celebrate. So when you think about heritage and tradition, there are good things that we try to keep and that we we pass down.

Derek: 41:59

But when you when you take a look at propaganda, you know, that's it's sort of the same thing. It's it's information that we want to propagate and Mhmm. Hands down. Mhmm. So when when you look back through history, through US history in particular, do you think that The United States is, the type of nation that when we talk about heritage and when we talk about, making America great again, like, it used to be like our heritage was.

Derek: 42:34

How do you Mhmm. How do you distinguish between these two ideas of what is good heritage and tradition to pass down

Kyle: 42:40

Mhmm.

Derek: 42:41

And what is mythology and and propaganda?

Kyle: 42:45

Yeah. I think that's one of the good things about history and trying to under uncover, what really happened, is the key. And history should not only be looking for the stories that make us feel good. But, you know, I think history tells us where we've been, where we are, and where we are going. That's what I always say about history.

Kyle: 43:13

It's a it's it's alive, and it's good for us. So I think, you know, what do we hand down? What is tradition? What is heritage? What should we be proud of?

Kyle: 43:22

What should we, you know, leave behind or or let go? Goes back to having stories that are are divorced from different voices and different perspectives. So when I go back and I look at history, I like to to say, like, we were so close to being a nation without slavery. It was in the constitution, but that phrase was taken out in order to get the Southern states to align and, overthrow, you know, and get rid of the, you know, the British. Right?

Kyle: 44:00

So it I mean, we are so close. And another thing I I hear from people is, like, well, you know, Africans were rounding up their own people and selling them too. That's part of the history too. And I always would like to say, do you buy everything that's being sold? What kind of nation would we could we have said or been if we had never bought them?

Kyle: 44:26

Even if they're on sale, did we have to buy them? That was like, no. Let's why don't we do something different? You know? But that's not the case.

Kyle: 44:35

Right? So going back in history, I think what we need to do is acknowledge the fullness of history, good, bad, and indifferent. So we can say, hey. You know, this person did amazing stuff. You know, Thomas Jefferson didn't want slave, but he owned slave and had kids with them and and, you know, and raped black women.

Kyle: 45:00

So what does that do? You have to you need to look at it full in the face and say, okay. What can we learn from it, and what do we not wanna pass down? So I I know people whose relative ancestors fought in the civil war as a confederate. So what do you do with that history?

Kyle: 45:22

So you need to look at it fully and say, okay. He was fighting for an ideal that was wrong. What can I take from that? You know, whether that be fighting for something that you believe that let's make it on the right side of history this time. But you can't deny that you had a grandfather, a great grandfather that fought in the civil war and wanted to own people.

Kyle: 45:46

Does that mean, okay. I need to take everything he believed in and then instill and be like, yo, great grandfather. You know, he prayed before going to battle. You know? And I was like, okay.

Kyle: 45:58

But, what was he praying about? State's rights. What what were what are the state's rights? He said, well, they wanted to own a people. You know?

Kyle: 46:08

They want to own people. But I think, for me, when I look at history, I always call it our history. Like, black history is our history. Just founding fathers are my founding fathers too even though, you know, some, you know, were racist, some were believers, some were agnostic, but that's part of history. You cannot just pull a strand out and say, okay.

Kyle: 46:33

That's we're not gonna deal with that or look at it, because it distorts the whole image. It just just distorts everything. So I think it's important to keep those things. You know? And people talk about, you know, the stat erasing statues is erasing history.

Kyle: 46:50

I'm like, well, how many times did you actually read the plaque? Did you actually read it? I don't think it because you have nothing no no idea about it. Just like, one of the things, it's it's it's really disheartening. So for a long time in New York, there was a statue of a man, and I forget his name.

Kyle: 47:06

It's gonna bother me. But he's considered the father of gynecology. Figured out it's a medical issue. But he was in the rural South operating on black and enslaved women without anesthesia because they were, quote, not worth it. You know?

Kyle: 47:23

And one woman went under the knife, I think, 13 times. No out of anesthesia. You know? Operating a a system, you know, it was, I can't remember what the what the disease or the cause was, but it had to do with, you know, the private parts. You know, I'm just trying to be discreet, but imagine getting operated with known as anesthesia.

Kyle: 47:45

And then once he figured it out, he moved his practice up New York, opened it up, and offered anesthesia to his white client. Father of gynecology. Now does gynecology help us? Is it good? Yes.

Kyle: 47:59

And we also like, we honor this man. It's like, oh, he's a but the history, we lost. Look at history full on and grapple with it. That's what we need to do is grapple with it because we're in danger of doing the exact same thing that was perpetrated in the past, but just in a different way. You know, just like saying, you know, black people are more violent or savage or, more sexual deviance and things of that nature.

Kyle: 48:31

We'll just do it more subtly, but we're still doing the same thing of operating on enslaved people without anesthesia.

Derek: 48:37

Yeah.

Kyle: 48:38

There's I know there's other parts of your question. Remind me if I have not answered them.

Derek: 48:42

Yeah. Sure. Sure. When you said Savage, have you seen the movie Zootopia?

Kyle: 48:48

I have. Yes.

Derek: 48:50

Okay. Yeah. That that was such a good like, our kids like it, but then as you're watching it, you're like, oh, that is so good.

Kyle: 48:56

Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. Really good. Yeah.

Derek: 49:01

So I I think, you said a really good word there in that, I think you you can tell something's propaganda oftentimes if it's lopsided, because heritage and tradition shouldn't should be inclusive of the good and the bad. Mhmm. It it reminds me of, so have you read To Kill a Mockingbird or you you know about it?

Kyle: 49:24

I have. Yeah.

Derek: 49:24

Okay.

Kyle: 49:25

Yeah.

Derek: 49:25

So we named our first son Atticus, and we had we had chosen that name. And then after we chose the name, Harper Lee, I think it is, Mhmm. She came out with her second book or announced that her second book was coming out. And then everybody started naming their kids Atticus. But, my wife read the second book, and everybody hated that book, except for her.

Derek: 49:49

She liked it. Because, in the book, you know, Atticus Finch, who is this, this guy this man of integrity in the first book Mhmm. And he is he's just this this staunch protagonist. In the second book, you're like, oh, he you know, some of his motives weren't good. He has some racist beliefs even though he he helped his his black client.

Derek: 50:13

He just he's he becomes very complex, and he's not like a Right. You're like, he's not really bad, but he's not Mhmm. Really all good. So, you know, we're used to these Marvel superhero movies where all good Mhmm. Were all bad.

Kyle: 50:29

Yeah. Yeah. That's propaganda. That's propaganda. It hates complexity.

Kyle: 50:34

I mean, you said that yourself. It hates complexity and loves simplicity because you can wrap it up in a neat little bow. Go on. Sorry.

Derek: 50:43

No. Yeah. Spot on. So, I I think what you said there about, you know you know, heritage and tradition versus propaganda is, you know, accepting all of our history. Mhmm.

Derek: 50:56

I I think that's that's good. And I have to remind myself of the opposite a lot of times that it as I look through American history, I'm like, man, there's no good. Nothing whatsoever.

Kyle: 51:08

Right.

Derek: 51:08

And so I have to remind myself that there there is good and, to be able to to kind of balance that out and recognize truth, the good truth and the bad truth.

Kyle: 51:18

Mhmm. Yeah. Correct. Correct.

Derek: 51:22

Alright. So next question. When I think about, our history and when I think about racism and and the bad things that have happened to black people, as I as I reflect on on how I used to think, I used to think, oh, yeah. That was, you know, slavery up to civil rights. And, basically, once you get civil rights, I mean, you're you're good to go.

Derek: 51:51

Like, now you're you're one you're one of us. And there there are a lot of things that kind of shattered that realization for me, a number of of different events. Mhmm. But one of the ones that was the most profound was when I was at, a a rally or whatever it was, for I think it was the the one race movement. One of the speakers said that, you know, he was he was talking to his his mom.

Derek: 52:23

He's like, mom, why didn't you, like or his grandma, why didn't you keep fighting for rights? And she was just like, we were just so tired. And I was like, what it oh, he so so they didn't really accomplish everything then. Right? Like, they just kind of it it it was a realization for me where Mhmm.

Derek: 52:45

I thought that rights were obtained and everything was good to go. But the black community Mhmm. Recognized that that's not the truth. So maybe you could talk about maybe some of the propaganda surrounding, what actually happened with the civil rights movement, why the black community, by and large, doesn't think that that that, Mhmm. Was maybe as good as as a lot of white people think it was.

Kyle: 53:10

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, speaking of the civil rights, one thing, you know, you say, you know, after sign off, you know, because I'm a passive pacifist. When I say it, I mean it. You know?

Kyle: 53:25

When you tell people peace. I recently well, I've been having an internal struggle with pacifism, because you have two people. You have you have MLK and you have Malcolm X, and they're often pitted against each other. And to me, I hold this idea that I honestly think for change to happen, you need both. I think, you know, I think, you know, the peace led movement, it does show the monster because when you're not violent, it shows them as a monster.

Kyle: 54:02

Right? Just like when Emmett Till's casket was open. It shows, like, wow. Or the images you see of, a black man being attacked by dogs, you know, and they're doing a peaceful protest. Right?

Kyle: 54:14

It shows that. But if there's no there's no underlying course of, like, if you if you push me too far, like, we're going to have to do something. You know? So I think we I do think we need both. But so civil rights just on paper legally said, oh, you know, it you are now a citizen.

Kyle: 54:37

That, you know, that's all it did, which it said it took so long to be recognized as a citizen of this nation even though every major US conflict in our history, black people have fought in. Every major conflict, Every single one, even when we were slaves, fought in, for this country, for its ideas. And you're like, why? Because they believed something that this nation could be even though they didn't experience it. You know, how would it how would, you know, feel like you fought for this country and then you come home and you don't get the same rights that you're fighting for?

Kyle: 55:13

There's a a battle in World War two where black and white soldiers fought against each other in in, England because they're allowed in the pubs. And their white soldiers was like, you can't allow them here. And they're like, this is not your country. You know? They they can enter in here, and then a battle was actually fought against white soldiers and black soldiers because they weren't in their place.

Kyle: 55:42

So, fast forward a little bit. Civil rights happens and, you know, you know, right to vote. Yes. You know, all this stuff is good. And it's just like it was just on paper.

Kyle: 55:53

So this legislation doesn't change the hearts of men. So even though you you you gain these inalienable rights that should have been granted from the beginning, doesn't necessarily mean circumstances on the ground have changed. So, you know, all the time then what happened? Jim Crow happened. So every if you look at every step that has been advanced or gained by the black community I'm speaking about the black community.

Kyle: 56:20

There's always a reaction to it to push it back. So you have, you know, the freedom you have okay. So let's say you had slavery, and then slaves started escaping. And then what did they they they passed the fugitive slave act to get them back. Slavery ends, and then you have, indentured servitude, sharecropping.

Kyle: 56:43

You get civil rights back, and then what do you have? You have Jim Crow. You say three words, black lives matter, and then you have blue lives matter. So everything that's there's always gonna be a reaction to push push it back. And so we have the Jim Crow, which is a little bit more subtle than the, sharecropping, which is a little bit more subtle than the fugitive slave act, which is a little bit more subtle than outright slavery.

Kyle: 57:13

And then even with the passage of these laws, you have subtlety. You know what I hate the most is reading that slavery is abolished except in the payment of crime or except in you know, for crime that you are duly convicted. And then we can talk about incarceration rates. Right?

Derek: 57:39

Yeah. You had you had convict leasing and, war on drugs, all kinds of things.

Kyle: 57:45

Right. Yes. All all that and it's like, all of it plays into into that role. And then, you know, I tie it back to, you know, the fall of man where we're each clamoring for dignity, so we subjugate others to get that value. And so with that all with that being said about, you know, that phrase and so you have a mass incarceration, and, largely, you know, and all that.

Kyle: 58:13

That is due to poverty. You know? Like you said, like, poverty plays a large role. And why do we have poverty? Because of injustices?

Kyle: 58:21

You know? And propaganda, you know, it likes nice little neat packages, right, and no outside voices. So for me, there is I think, in my opinion, there is a nice little neat little time in history where you can almost pinpoint generational property, ghettos, and hoods, and why it's still perpetuated today. It is after World War two. The GI Bill was largely refused to black veterans.

Kyle: 58:57

And after that time, we see wealth being accumulated, generational wealth, where, you know, a veteran can come home, get a mortgage, and pay off their house. They have an they have an asset now, right, that can be handed down to their kids. You can build upon that. Right? And you keep building and building and building.

Kyle: 59:18

But let's say you come home as a black veteran. You don't get that GI bill. You can't buy a house. You get red wine. So where do you buy the cheapest cheapest house that you find or you rent?

Kyle: 59:31

And what do you not get to do? You do not get to build generational wealth assets, something that you can hand down. And you can see almost from that point how things just continue to get worse and worse and why ghettos and hoods and, you know, and gangs and violence and all that stuff that is propagated that that's all we do came to be. And there's an element of truth to that. So so it's interesting.

Kyle: 01:00:00

If you ever have time, go back and look at the GI Bill and what happened after that. And even, like, the color of law talks about do they talk about talk about redlining in there and how recent that happens? Personal anecdote. Personal story. When my wife went to look at houses, I always had her going first to ask about the house to get the pamphlet.

Kyle: 01:00:24

She asked me why, and I told her. I don't want them to to say they have a buyer when they see me. And it's just that's just how I walk. You know? Because, largely, I walk in in white circles, and I tend to be in in white spaces and things like that.

Kyle: 01:00:43

So I am considered more of, like, what I term myself, like, the safe black person. People can ask me any question. Right? And I don't shy away from just, you know, just ask. If it's on your mind, ask.

Kyle: 01:00:53

Even if you say, well, it's gonna sound racist. Just ask the question. You know? I'll tell you. But so that to me, you know, that's a personal personal story.

Kyle: 01:01:07

And I think I kinda kinda forgot the forgot the question here. But, you know, I hope that, you know, I'm not just going on too many tangents or rabbit holes there.

Derek: 01:01:16

That was good. Yeah. I so, even though I definitely identify as a a pacifist and think that that is the Mhmm. The best way to convert the the the kingdom of God. At the same time, I do I do have a lot of respect for people like Malcolm X.

Derek: 01:01:32

And, I don't know if you're familiar with Robert f Williams, but Mhmm. He is Not as much. Yeah. He is, like, my favorite, at the moment. Even though he was he was pro violence, he didn't he didn't ever really use violence.

Derek: 01:01:49

But he he definitely used the the threat of it. Like, hey. This is what I'm capable of. But you should you should read up on on him. Okay.

Derek: 01:01:58

He he's got a book called Negroes with Guns, which is is good. But, there's there's actually another book which is a lot more detailed because he doesn't Mhmm. He's a really humble guy. He doesn't toot his own horn at all. But his the biography of him, like, really goes into his exploits a whole lot more and and, and plays them up.

Derek: 01:02:18

But it's called Radio Free Dixie. And he actually, is is called that because he, when the FBI chased him for doing nothing, of course, he, he fled to Cuba where where he was, you know, he was given free passage, and he started radio station there and and and started radio free Dixie back into The United States to, like, trying to teach the black community about,

Kyle: 01:02:44

Right.

Derek: 01:02:44

Not not rebellion, but, you know, hey. Look. We're we're we can be free. So he's a awesome guy. You should check him out.

Kyle: 01:02:51

Okay. And I definitely will. Speaking of Cuba, here's another side. Just like the history of baseball has a lot of Negro leagues that stayed in Cuba and would play ball down there and be like, this is great. Like, I'm not going back.

Kyle: 01:03:09

And we're actually, like, Americans white Americans were angry that they would stay over there. Like, you need to come back to America. It's like, well, why? Like, the history of look at the history of bay baseball in regards to, you know, South America and Cuba where they experienced a lot more freedom. They're like, yeah.

Kyle: 01:03:28

I think I'll stay here. I think I'm good. I'll check out I'll check out what is it? It's, you said Robert Fellows?

Derek: 01:03:34

Robert f Williams. I'll I'll send you a

Kyle: 01:03:36

link for this. Yeah. Definitely do that. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle: 01:03:39

I think you've mentioned him a couple times in previous podcast.

Derek: 01:03:43

Yeah. He's he's pretty amazing. But it it also part of why I read that was because, you know, he was he was involved in depropagandizing. Mhmm. Because when you hear, like, wait a second.

Derek: 01:03:59

Cuba is communist. What do you mean what do you mean people are going to Cuba to be free? Mhmm. And that just that that messes with the American

Kyle: 01:04:07

Right.

Derek: 01:04:07

Mindset that, you know, we're free here.

Kyle: 01:04:11

Right. Going back to, propaganda, one thing I wanted to bring up too was the other side of propaganda. So let's say you have images, you know, that are overtly racist. Right? And and they they show, like, minstrel c and they show, you know, blackface and the, you know, the big lips and the, you know, the big nose and being a savage and, you know, like, all that stuff when we think of racist imagery.

Kyle: 01:04:41

Right? To the people that it's not directed toward, that's the enemy. Yeah. They're like that. But the people that it's representing, after a while, if you see this year after year, ten years, twenty year, a hundred years, you know, a hundred and twenty years, you begin to believe it, that this is who you are.

Kyle: 01:05:02

Right? You start ingesting those ideas that you perhaps maybe you are inferior. Maybe this is true about me. Yeah. There is a is a lot of crime.

Kyle: 01:05:13

So the the opposite side, the converse side of propaganda is those are insulated from it. They have their own breeding ground, their own echo chambers, and they're safe. The ones who are on the outside are not safe for two reasons. One, propaganda created an enemy. Two, that enemy begins to ingest that propaganda themselves and begins to believe it, and they start to, you know, self fulfill prophecy.

Kyle: 01:05:45

That is very true. I was talking to, a man. You know, I I work in a logistic field, so we have a lot of truck drivers. A man, he's in his, mid seventies. A live alert looks great.

Kyle: 01:06:01

You know? Funny. You know? Black don't crack. Like, you would never know he was set he was in his seventies.

Kyle: 01:06:08

He's telling me he remembers the signs that say colored only as a kid. He remembers sitting in the back of the bus. He remember like, he he says, I can viscerally feel what it's like even as a young kid that you're inferior, that your water fountain looks a hell of a lot different than the white water fountain, and you do not drink from there. He remembers being the first class to desegregate a school in Texas. You know?

Kyle: 01:06:40

And he said, I just remember being in high school, and they're saying, oh, they're gonna rape rape our women. And then we desegregate that school, and the white girls can't keep their hands off us. You know? And he you know, and I'm not saying it's like I'm just using the term, you know, the term then he's just like and then we get accused of rape. And he's like, you and we were trying to bat these women, like, girls' office because, like, we knew what it meant if we were caught.

Kyle: 01:07:08

You know? And he's like and then, you know, lies are spread. If you reject her, you raped me. If you go with her, you can be killed. And he says, I remember in Texas, they called it a hanging tree.

Kyle: 01:07:20

And he said, one of my friends met one week, he did something with a girl, and he was on that tree. This is a person who's alive. You know? And I'm just like so this is what proper candidate does. It could be subtle, but the the other side of it is not so subtle.

Kyle: 01:07:38

It's dangerous. And my own grandparents, I think I shared their story in the Black History Month. My grandfather and the the famous Woolsworth sit ins happened all across there was more than one Woolsworth. The famous one, I think, is in Chicago, but there's one in Norfolk, Virginia. My grandfather was the first one to go behind the counter and sit down in a in at a stool that said white zone.

Kyle: 01:08:03

My grand so that's a history that I have. You know? And I'm just like, that's history you can touch. It's not so long ago, and it's just like the mindset when you begin to inject it. Ibrahim, x Kendi talks a lot about this in his book about anyone can ingest and begin to believe racist material, even the one that it's perpetrated against, because of how long it's been ingested that maybe you are inferior.

Kyle: 01:08:31

I just want to kinda highlight that as well.

Derek: 01:08:34

No. I I think that's important. There's, there's the famous study. I don't know if it was from the sixties or fifties or whenever, but, you know, where where they had children that, were were taught that they were inferior, you know, primed

Kyle: 01:08:49

Right.

Derek: 01:08:50

To think that way. You know, kids with blue eyes, whatever. Or Yeah.

Kyle: 01:08:54

I remember that study. Yeah.

Derek: 01:08:55

But there's a I just finished the book, called Chokehold, which Okay. Is written by a black man who is or at least was a prosecutor. And it was really fascinating because, you know, he he wasn't just talking about theory. He's saying, hey. Look.

Derek: 01:09:14

I was a prosecutor. I dressed this way. Here's what I thought. Like, I wanted to nail those those punks. I laughed when they came into the courtroom dressed a particular way because I knew I could I could nail them and get them the maximum.

Kyle: 01:09:26

And

Derek: 01:09:26

so he talks about how he internalized propaganda Mhmm. To, and then how that impacted the way that he treated, you know, he treated black people or he looked at them as inferior. And, he also gave some interesting statistics that, he talked about how black police officers, have a higher rate of of violence towards black people. Mhmm. He so he part of what he he talks about is just the internalization.

Kyle: 01:09:58

Right. Right. Yeah.

Derek: 01:10:00

So exactly what you were saying. It was Mhmm. It's fascinating.

Kyle: 01:10:04

Yeah.

Derek: 01:10:07

Okay. I I think last question here.

Kyle: 01:10:11

Mhmm.

Derek: 01:10:12

So in regard to black history, you know, there are a lot of people who are are familiar with things like the Tuskegee experiments. You know? Mhmm. Most people know about that, as Mhmm. As okay.

Derek: 01:10:25

That's a a conspiracy that that really was true. Mhmm. But, you know, of course, that that has come to light. But Mhmm. When I read through your Black History Month stories, I'm like, man, there's that's that's a scratch on the surface.

Derek: 01:10:41

There's so much Mhmm. That that people don't know about. Mhmm. So the a couple months ago when you did your Black History Month, you had a story on, what is it? Vertis Hardiman?

Kyle: 01:10:55

Yeah.

Derek: 01:10:55

And where he and his his siblings were experimented on similar to the Tuskegee experiments. So I would say that most of my friends probably view racist examples in history as kind of, like, exceptions. Well, that happens, you know, way back then, or that happens sporadically at this place or that place. It's not it's not really a rule as the exception. Mhmm.

Derek: 01:11:21

Right. At the same time so they they they view, offenses against black people as the exception, but they simultaneously view black crime as the rule Mhmm. And not the exception. You know, black people are violent. They probably wouldn't say that, but Right.

Derek: 01:11:37

They they think it. So maybe you can kind of unpack how the history of violence against black people isn't an exception. And this double standard that that my community has where we we individualize our flaws while generalizing the flaws of the other group?

Kyle: 01:11:57

Mhmm. Right. Yeah. Oh, great question. So, so the first one, there's a book I read, and it talked all about, like, medical atrocities within the black community that happened.

Kyle: 01:12:13

Medical holocaust. I'll find it, and I'll and I'll let you know later what that what that book was. So it talks a lot about, in the medical field, what that happened and how it's still kind of pervasive. I've mentioned it before about the opioid crisis, about, you know, medical field is still treating black people as, you know, inferior or not preferring not listening to their pain meds. And just the statistics about how many black women actually die in pregnancy in a first world country than their white counterpart is astounding.

Kyle: 01:12:50

I'm not gonna give it because I don't know what that stat statistic is. But when you look it up, it is pretty astounding. And so I wouldn't so the big ones that we know of would be the exceptions. Right? The ones that kinda happen pervasively, throughout, like, you know, hearing stories here and there about a woman not getting COVID nineteen treatment, finding out she's black.

Kyle: 01:13:16

And a lot of times when we see and we realize these things, it's kinda like, yeah. That happens to us. We know. There's a strong distrust of the medical field in the black community, due to atrocities that happened to us. Strong distrust.

Kyle: 01:13:36

I even I did before this time, I even recognized propaganda that was happening in the black community about for the COVID nineteen vaccine. Even though, regardless what your stance is on the vaccine, but commercial after commercial would talk about this vaccine. I you know, I'm gonna take it because I know it was worked on by black doctors. And black the black community, we have a higher rate of, you know, diabetes, which will actually make COVID nineteen even worse. Right?

Kyle: 01:14:07

Those things are true, but the idea with that propaganda was to subvert the propaganda that was already in place. So, okay, we actually really need you to take this vaccine, even though, historically, we, you know, we did medical scientific stuff or, you know, experiments on you. But it's been it was done by black doctors. They helped work on the vaccine, so y'all need to take it. Okay?

Kyle: 01:14:35

But that propaganda was just to reverse what was done for for, you know, hundreds of years. So generalization versus, individualizing something. That is something that, you know, I looked into or I thought about and pondered why is this the case. And I think it it's a myriad of of of different things, but I think one of the biggest things is the black community is often seen as a monolith. Right?

Kyle: 01:15:03

I mean, we even had someone saying, you know, our current president saying, oh, the, you know, the Latin community is more diverse than the black community. Right? We're often seen as a monolith, and that is not without its truth. There's always a little bit of truth. Why are we seen as monolithic?

Kyle: 01:15:20

So, therefore, we can, you know, we can generalize everything to a whole people group. It's because the black, you know, experience black people had to become more cohesive in order to survive. You know? So a lot of lot of people don't realize that after the the right to vote passed, there was classes on how to answer questions so you can actually vote. You know what I mean?

Kyle: 01:15:51

So there's cohesion in there. How to, you know, stand together, the bus boycott. There's cohesion in there. So being a monolithic culture, we tend to be that way because we know that that's what we did to survive. Even phrasing within the black community is monolithic.

Kyle: 01:16:10

Meaning, if a national tragedy happens, an atrocity happens, a lot of us say, oh, I hope he's not black. Why? Because we know, and we'll even say because it'll set us ten years back. Why is that the case? Because there is that monolithic idea, that that culture that is pervasion both by our doing to survive.

Kyle: 01:16:33

Right? But, also, propaganda likes to put things in boxes so they, them, they always do this, or other. It others people. Right? So twofold is why individual happens.

Kyle: 01:16:48

And then largely within white America, the rugged individual as individual as the American. Right? We are individual, you know, freedom and this, that, and the other. You can't tell us what to do. That ideology plays a role in why when you fail or you do something wrong, it's individual.

Kyle: 01:17:07

Like, oh, they did that. That's not all of us. We're not all rapists. You know? But if it happens to someone that's black, they're all like this.

Kyle: 01:17:19

They're rapists because of those two factors at play. Right? Rugged individualism, monolithic culture, one to survive, one, the burgeoning, you know, of a nation. Right? And that whole ideology and that mindset of what America is.

Kyle: 01:17:34

Right? So to me, I think that's why this happens. That's why it's generalized. And I don't it should not be that way, but sadly, it it is. And I don't really know how to, to do to counteract that.

Kyle: 01:17:52

For instance, like, also when you have success stories, like, largely, you know, when a black person sick is successful, you're like, see. Look. He's successful, and it's like the exception, not the rule. You know? We had a a black president.

Kyle: 01:18:07

Oh, that's awesome. Or we can still name first blacks. Some you know, Simone Manuel became the first black woman to receive a swimming medal in the Olympics. You know? And that happened, what, four years ago in the Summer Olympics?

Kyle: 01:18:22

Like, we're still naming firsts. And, that should be that should be the success should be not the exception. That should be the rule.

Derek: 01:18:33

Yeah. Speaking of speaking of swimming medals, it's one of those things that, you know, black people are are known to not be great swimmers, and or or to to like the pool and,

Kyle: 01:18:45

Right. I mean, and people said because they had denser bones. You know, like No.

Derek: 01:18:49

No. Well, I so I reading that that book on Robert Williams, it clicked for me. I was like, I'm an idiot. But so, one of the the big confrontations that he had was he he went out and he protested that, blacks weren't allowed to use the pool, the the community pool. And so part one of the stories, one of the things that kind of got them fired up was that, they there were some black kids who went to the local quarry because that's where they would swim, and they ended up drowning.

Derek: 01:19:22

And, so I was like, oh my goodness. Like, so it's it's probably it it's not this, like, well, they have an aversion to water or they have denser bones or whatever else. It's Mhmm. You know, they were excluded from the place where people go to learn to swim safely. And parents were like, no.

Derek: 01:19:40

You're not gonna go to the quarry. Right. And so Mhmm. You know, they're they're insulated from being able to learn how to swim. And that was Correct.

Kyle: 01:19:48

That was

Derek: 01:19:49

just a revelation for me Mhmm. Of, like, this this, this racism, how it's impacted people, to develop a a particular action stereotypically. And, it's just so tragic that that, you know, black people were swimming in quarries and dying. Mhmm. And so they were prevented from from swimming at all.

Kyle: 01:20:13

Yeah. When you put them to get put start putting pieces together, you're just like, wow. I never saw it this way. And still to this day, because the confluence of cities, you know, they don't have access to the pools in the gated community. So still, there's a lot of black people who cannot swim.

Kyle: 01:20:35

And then you have, you know, it is easier and cheaper. Let's say you have a a school that's struggling. It's cheaper to put a track or a basketball and offer that a sport than a swimming pool because of the money. So then you'll have natural excelling at track sports. You know?

Kyle: 01:20:56

And I I mean, I love the Olympics. I love watching track, and I'm just like, yeah. Look at that. Look all that black black girl magic, black boy you know what I mean? I just love seeing it, and it's just like, why is it now you can do some scientific stuff and and look at slow twitch and fast fibers and and muscles and things like that.

Kyle: 01:21:14

But it is largely based on access and injustice and poverty.

Derek: 01:21:22

Yeah. I I think that's all I have for you that I could I could think of. Is is there anything that you'd like to to add? Mhmm.

Kyle: 01:21:31

Yeah. Two things. One, I would encourage, any of the listeners who have not seen the documentary thirteenth, watch it. And there's other things that you can watch too, but that watch that one. Secondly, if you love podcasts, listen to wrongful convictions.

Kyle: 01:21:52

Have you heard of that one? It's with, Jason Flom, and they are part of exonerating, you know, death row, innocent people. So the Innocent Project. Right? So he heads up the Innocent Project, and it will open your eyes to there is a different legal system for poor people.

Kyle: 01:22:18

There's a different legal system for poor black people and poor white people. Right? And you even mentioned in the in your racism segment about you would think the people that had the most in common, poor white people and poor black people, you know, they could, like, work together, but oftentimes, they did not. Right? You know, they would say, I'd rather be poor and white, you know, than, you know, to be a black person.

Kyle: 01:22:42

Right? So it's called wrongful convictions, and it's just story after story after story, and you're just like a people when they were teenagers getting locked up for decades. You know? And beside that, the last thing on it, there was just a Supreme Court case that got passed that if you are no other evidence can be for a death row inmate. No other external evidence can be admitted in your case.

Kyle: 01:23:15

Yes. Yes. In your in your in your case that wasn't presented before. Because usually if you're like, well, new evidence has come to light. I think it's a a segment of of cases.

Kyle: 01:23:29

I think it's whether if you were on death row or if you had certain amount of appeal, but still, they have made that you cannot do that anymore. And who that is gonna affect a large amount of minorities who are innocent in jail.

Derek: 01:23:45

I'll have to, I'll have to research that and look look that up and see what the the rationale is because I know that Mhmm. I know that the justice system likes to look right. And so, you know, is this is this a response to, Right. We we don't wanna plug up our system anymore with appeals because we've already got, you know, too many too many things going on? Or is it because we wanna look like we got it right the first time and we don't wanna keep on returning these?

Kyle: 01:24:10

Mhmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But wrongful commission, you'll learn a lot in that podcast.

Kyle: 01:24:17

Okay. So, yeah, that's that's all I had.

Derek: 01:24:21

Alright. Well, thank you so much for, for giving me, an hour and a half of your time.

Kyle: 01:24:26

Oh, yeah. You're welcome. Yeah. Thanks for staying up this late too. Yeah.

Derek: 01:24:30

No problem. That's all for now. So peace, and because I'm a pacifist, when I say it, I mean it. Podcast is a part of the Kingdom Outpost Network. Please check out the links below to find other great podcasts and content related to nonviolence and kingdom living.