Derek: 00:06

Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. Today we are continuing our discussion on consequentialism. In the last episode, I took a look at the first way that God started to uncover consequentialism in my life and how it affected the way that I showed grace to other people and the way that I believed that I myself needed or didn't need grace. We're gonna continue with that theme and take a look at another way that God has been uncovering consequentialism in my life as it relates specifically to the act of forgiveness. We'll start off with a with a little question here.

Derek: 00:42

What is the difference between a lost cause and a noble 1? When does another chance turn into the last chance? And those questions shouldn't really be that hard for a Christian to answer. We took a look in the last episode at the specific example of the priest from Les Mis, and we talked about whether his cause was a noble cause or a stupid cause or even an immoral cause for being a bad steward. And I think that these questions about being a lost cause or, you know, when's the last chance, I think these kind of revolve around the the same sort of of concept.

Derek: 01:27

There are things that we might answer 1 way as a Christian who knows what the right answer is supposed to be. But when we live life out or when we think about things practically, we might have some different answers. As a Christian, you know, we might say, well, God's omnipotent, so there really is no such thing as a lost cause. But we know that the way that we do a lot of ministries and we get statistics and things, we we try to figure out who's worth pouring into. And so we understand that that there are causes that we're not gonna waste our time on, Not because we don't necessarily believe that god could do something there, but just because that's not a a great use of our time or resources.

Derek: 02:14

What's the point? God's probably not gonna do anything. And most of us probably actually even though we believe god is omnipotent, we don't usually see that in our lives. We might actually doubt that omnipotence as well. And in the in the same sort of vein, we can take a look at Jesus's life specifically, and we know that he tells us to forgive as he forgave.

Derek: 02:38

He forgave his enemies. He forgave people while he was hanging on the cross saying, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. He told Peter to forgive 70 times 7, which, I mean, essentially means just forgive forever. So when we took it take take a look at, the example of Jesus's life, then there doesn't seem to be a thing like a last chance, at least for for his believers and followers.

Derek: 03:06

And maybe there's a last chance, and 1 day at the judgment, decisions will have been made, and there will be an eternal consequence. But at least for us, we temporal beings who have been told to be followers of Christ, we don't really have that ultimatum before us. It's not our job to to issue that consequence. We are to be like our savior who forgives even our enemies. Last year, we were in The States for for a little bit while we had to deal with some of our our family illness here.

Derek: 03:46

And while we were here, we didn't wanna lose our our Romanian language skill, so I got a language tutor. And it was really awesome. It was kinda awkward because you're kinda talking over Skype, and I did four hour blocks, which is a long time to talk to even your friends. So to have this random stranger that you're trying to talk to in another language when your language skill isn't really that great, so your conversation's limited. It was, you know, it was it was a little awkward, but it ended up being pretty good.

Derek: 04:20

She was a good conversationalist, and, you know, it was her job to basically listen to me and go where I wanted to go. So we got to talk about a lot of of really cool things. And 1 of the things that we talked about was my experience with Alexa, and that is a pseudonym here. But Alexa was a a Roma woman that we had worked with over in Romania. And she was actually the the first Roma woman that we really befriended.

Derek: 04:53

And I remember the story so well. She she was just she would show up to our house and ring the doorbell, and we'd see her through the little, like, screen. They have, like, doorbell video cameras. And we'd see who it was, and we'd go out, and she'd beg and beg and beg and beg and beg. And, you know, sometimes we'd give her food.

Derek: 05:16

But then if she came back too frequently, like, you know, within two or three days, we didn't wanna enable her. So we said no, and we'd turn her away. But if she came back, like, every two weeks or something, yeah, we'd probably give her food again. And this kinda kept up and kept up. And 1 day oh, and you also have to remember that this is really awkward for us.

Derek: 05:41

This is, like, the first three months we're in country, so we don't know much language. It is usually harder to understand some of the Roma and the way that they talk. It it's so awkward because I to get her to go away, I literally have to close the door almost right in her face. Like, her nose is 6 inches away from the door. And she just won't go away.

Derek: 06:07

It's just the most awkward situation, and it makes you feel guilty. It's just terrible. Well, 1 day oh, and she always comes at the most inopportune times too. Well, 1 day, she came at an inopportune time, and I looked through the video monitor, and I said, it's her again. And I turned to my wife and said, it's your turn this time.

Derek: 06:30

And she looked at me, and and she felt the same way that I did all the time. But God was gracious to her and gave her some revelation. And and she just looked and she said, do we even know her name? And, no, we did not know her name. She was just some some object to us that we, you know, we thought it was a good idea to come over and help people like her in our nine to five when they were outside of our walls in their community and they were projects.

Derek: 07:04

But as somebody to whom we were to show hospitality, not so much. Because the Roma community, they tend to not be vaccinated. We have a young young son. We didn't know he had health issues at this time. But very soon afterwards, he started to develop breathing issues.

Derek: 07:22

And, whether it's TB or measles running around in the Roma community, it's not good to be around them. We know that when they come into to houses, they're known to steal things. They're known to be really shady. We have we have kids. You know, their their well-being might be, in danger.

Derek: 07:43

And so letting a Roma person into your house to kinda scope it out, didn't sound like the the best idea. It didn't sound like like the thing that we wanted to do. But it's the thing that that God led us to because we were so inhospitable. We did not know her name. We had never invited her in.

Derek: 08:06

Okay. If I'm gonna turn her away and not give her any food, that's 1 thing. But to have her come to my door 20 times and never invite her in to drink some tea or to have coffee, that's that's just kinda crazy that I, as a Christian, would be inhospitable. And hospitality is is 1 of the the gifts that we see, in the bible that's that's really important. Hospitality, I believe I I have to look this up and maybe post a link below.

Derek: 08:41

But I believe hospitality is actually 1 of the the sins that Sodom and Gomorrah was blasted for, where they were they were shown to be inhospitable. So I think hospitality, especially in the ancient world and and especially for Christians, is a it's a pretty big deal to to show hospitality to the stranger, to the prisoner, to the the person in need. You know, that that's the thing that that Jesus says. You know, you clothed me and you fed me because you did this to to, you know, this person in need. But, to the other person, he says, I don't even know you.

Derek: 09:18

Like, you didn't you didn't help the stranger. So, anyway, God God worked on our hearts, and we let in Alexa to our house. And we formed a relationship, and over over the course of time, we helped her with some food and things. But, primarily, we didn't want to just hand her things, but we tried to help her get certain government documents so she could get government funding, so she could get help with her kids, and, just all sorts of of processes we tried to walk her through. And to help her get money, we offered to allow her to clean our house, and we we paid her well for that so that she could try to save up money.

Derek: 10:01

And and we just tried to help in a lot of ways. But, of course, as as we thought was probably inevitable, 1 day, our credit card had tons of of, money racked up on it, and it was thousands of of dollars. And we realized that Alexa had had swiped 1 of our credit cards and used it. And this was offensive, not only because it was a betrayal of trust, but because in Romania, they don't most people don't have credit cards, and especially the Roma, they don't know how how credit cards work. And in their mind, in in Alexa's mind, what she was doing was basically all of the money that was was coming out was from our bank account.

Derek: 10:54

She didn't she doesn't understand that there's credit and you have fraud insurance. And so, it ended up that all the money she racked up, we didn't have to pay for. But she didn't know that. She thought that she was taking all of that money from from us directly. And that was that was just crazy.

Derek: 11:14

And to make it even worse, you know, a week or two later after we realized all this and we tried to figure out what to do, she came back to us, and she tried to sell us all of this, this new stuff that she had gotten, like, all of these clothes and things. And we were pretty sure that she was trying to sell us the stuff that she bought with our own money. I mean, it it was ludicrous, just the the gall that she had. And, after loving our kids, which she genuinely, I think, did, after loving our kids and and looking us in the face for week after week after week after we tried to help her do all these things, she just decided to take from us thousands of dollars. When we figured this all out and we were we were 99% sure it was Alexa, we confronted her.

Derek: 12:13

You know, we we had been counseled by people, you know, go to the police so that she can't do this again, which I don't know is inherently a bad thing to do. But Alexa had heard us talk about Jesus. She had been in our home. She had relationship with us. There were a lot of reasons that we didn't wanna go to the police.

Derek: 12:36

Retaliation was 1 as well because, the Roma communities can be pretty close knit, and there can be be problems. But but, primarily, we just didn't think that that was what Alexa needed, that that was the the right thing to do. And we were even willing like, we didn't know since we knew who took our credit card. We didn't know if the credit card company would make us try to pursue them to get it down, because it's not like just some random person stole it or it was lost and and such. Like, we knew who did it, and we had to tell the credit card company that.

Derek: 13:17

And we didn't know if the credit card company was gonna make us pay for it since we knew who it was, and it was, in in some senses, our fault that it was taken. And we were willing to eat the cost instead of instead of go to the police. And that was just a decision that we made. So we we had Alexa come over, and we confronted her and said, we do not want to go to the police. But, you know, we we need the person who took this to to tell us, to be honest with us because our goal isn't isn't to get somebody in trouble.

Derek: 14:01

Our goal is to have a relationship. And Alexa eventually just broke down and and said she did it, and she cried. And I I really think it was, I mean, she's a good actor and a good liar. Well, not a good liar. She she lies all the time, but she's not a good liar.

Derek: 14:18

But she's not she's not a great actor, and she really cried. And and I I think it was genuine because she does love our kids, and she maybe maybe appreciated some of the things that we we did for her. I don't know to what extent. But but what really broke her down was that when we sent her away, when when she left, you know, we said we need to figure out how to fix this so we're gonna have future discussions. But, we sent her away with food.

Derek: 14:53

Catalina had cooked a meal, and, we sent her away with food for her family because she had said that, you know, she needed to get back because she was gonna miss dinner. And we said, that's okay. You stay. We'll talk, and and we'll send you home with dinner. And we sent her home with food after knowing that she took thousands of dollars from us.

Derek: 15:17

And that just blew her mind. She she didn't understand it 1 bit. So, anyway, circling back to to our Romanian tutor, I told her that story about Alexa and about our our working with the Roma. And our our tutor was just she couldn't understand that story at all. It didn't compute.

Derek: 15:48

You know, she asked questions like, well, did she deserve it? Well, no. She didn't deserve it because and what she did was terrible. Not only that, but afterwards, she she'd continue to lie to us and, she she avoided us, a lot more. So, no, she didn't deserve it.

Derek: 16:06

Not at all. Our tutor asked, well, why was forgiveness good? When did it have been better to go to the cops that seems like it's it's more pragmatic. You're gonna take care of a menace to society by getting them in trouble. You're gonna instill some fear in her family and her community.

Derek: 16:25

You know, her kids will learn from her lesson because her kids basically have their mom for support, which isn't much support at all, but it's some. So if her kids see their mom go to jail, it might teach that community a lesson. So why is forgiveness good? Our tutor asked, weren't we justified in cutting her off? Couldn't we just say, don't I don't ever wanna see your face again.

Derek: 16:50

Get out of here. Yeah. It seems like we we would have been justified because she broke our relationship. And probably the most pertinent, question of all is, wasn't Alexa a lost cause? And, yeah, it sure seems that way.

Derek: 17:09

It seemed that way and still seems that way. Alexa just continues to be Alexa. She tried to blame her daughter for taking the credit card. She tried to to shift blame, and it's just she continues to lie, and she sure does seem like a lost cause. But, you know, the the answers that I just gave to all of all of those questions, did she deserve it?

Derek: 17:38

No. Was forgiveness good? Doesn't seem like it. Were we justified to cut her off? Yeah.

Derek: 17:44

Wasn't Alexa a lost cause? Yeah. And the those questions that I all that I answer all in that way are are not at all the way that I, as a Christian, answer them. Did she deserve it? Yeah.

Derek: 17:59

She did because, Jesus forgave me, the, a servant of a great debt, and shouldn't I forgive Alexa of a small 1? Why was forgiveness good? Because it's through love and forgiveness that that people's lives are changed, not through prison that has high recidivism rates. Because my savior showed me that it's good. Were we justified to cut her off?

Derek: 18:33

Yeah. If I wanted to be, thrown into everlasting torment. Isn't that what God says of the rich servant who refuses to forgive, the servant who owes him little? That you are wicked. Like, you need to go where they're weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Derek: 18:50

So no. Because my master says I'm not justified to cut her off. I am not justified to cut her off. Wasn't she a lost cause? Yeah.

Derek: 19:05

It's humanly speaking. But, if I wasn't a lost cause, if God could save somebody like me and change my heart, God could save somebody like Alexa and change her heart. I believe in a sovereign God, and I believe in an omnipotent God. So the the Christian answer to all of those questions is far different than our instinctive human answer is to those questions. And I might have gotten into some of that with with, the language tutor when I was responding to her question, but it actually worked out that, a few days before, we had had a another discussion that I I was able to use to maybe make something more understandable to her.

Derek: 19:51

See, a few days, before this, we had discussed the topic of of abortion, because my tutor, I don't think, was a a, a follower of Christ. She was probably a believer. She was grown up in a, a church where she was taught lots of rituals and things. So she believed biblical sorts of things and and some had some semblance of morality, but I don't think she was a disciple of Christ. I don't think she followed him.

Derek: 20:19

She just knew some things and had this residual morality. We had talked about the topic of abortion, and she was against abortion. She didn't like that that it occurred. And as we were talking about it, I was able to share this concept of intrinsic value. Because, key the key to the abortion debate is understanding, where value lies.

Derek: 20:46

Are people, are humans, are they intrinsically valuable, or does something else determine their value? Does their size determine their value? Does, you know, whether they're a fetus or not a fetus, like, where they're located, one's in the mother's womb, a baby's not. Does their level of development, does their intellect what determines the value of somebody? It's kinda like a baseball card.

Derek: 21:10

You know, a baseball card is has extrinsic value. It could be a priceless baseball card, but if it gets ripped and scratched and crumpled or burnt a bit, it becomes worthless or practically worthless. Do we view humans like that? Or are humans intrinsically valuable valuable? Does their value follow them wherever they go, no matter what?

Derek: 21:34

Whether they get arms chopped off, whether they are smart or stupid or or whatever. And even and this is the 1 where where even a lot of Christians go wrong. Do they have intrinsic value even if they're evil, even if they've done something wicked? Is it do we as Christian we we as Christians most of the time believe that people are intrinsically value valuable until they do something that's too wrong. And at that point, because of of their wrong action, their evil act, they all of a sudden lose their intrinsic value.

Derek: 22:13

Now, we wouldn't say that, but that's how we act. And we see that through this idea of forgiveness. See, a refusal to show love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness to another human being, in light of Christ's display of these things to us, is denial of somebody's intrinsic value. To refuse forgiveness is saying they're not worth it. They're not intrinsically valuable.

Derek: 22:41

And in that, we are essentially denying that the image of God transcends our choices. And somewhat similar to the last episode where I talked about how, you know, I I wouldn't have said it, but I realized in retrospect that I didn't I really didn't think I needed that much of God's grace. When we refuse to show forgiveness to somebody because we don't, we show that we don't believe that the image of God transcends choices, the inverse of that is is also true. If we believe that choices can, negate the image of God, then that means to a certain extent we believe that good choices can actually make the image, more valuable. And so in this 1 sense, we are denying the image bearing property to those who wrong us, while at the same time patting ourselves on the back by thinking we're more valuable for doing good things or avoiding doing bad things.

Derek: 23:46

Now at this point, a lot of people are probably gonna be shaking their heads and saying, no. No. No. You've got it wrong. What about that sex offender putting them in a church nursery?

Derek: 24:01

What about letting Alexa have unfettered access in your house again? There's no way you would do that. And that's right. I I do agree that those are not good things. But I think a lot of people conflate this the idea of trust and forgiveness.

Derek: 24:19

There's this misunderstanding that restoration and reconciliation means that there are no boundaries. And I I just don't believe that. And I think even in the the new heavens and earth, we see that there are boundaries of of sorts. We have the tempter and and his Binion. They're cast out.

Derek: 24:40

They're not gonna be around again. We see that the tree of good and evil is not present in the new heavens and new earth. There are there are boundaries. There are protections in place to prevent us from, from falling into what we've fallen into now. God graciously protects us from that.

Derek: 25:06

I think all too often, people think that in forgiveness that there are no boundaries, but but there are. It's just that that boundaries look different than barriers or whatever you wanna call them. A boundary is is not its goal is not to shame, but to love and protect not only other people, but also the offending party. And if you've listened to the, pacifist, the nonviolent podcast series so far, you recognize that 1 of the biggest mistakes Christians make is that, we agree with this love for everybody with the exception of enemies or those who who offend us. We're always about protecting the innocent, but we're never about protecting, offenders because we don't believe that enemies are worth it.

Derek: 26:01

And I think you see the same thing in forgiveness. We see all the time that, people want to protect everybody except the offender. But why don't we wanna protect the offender too? If I keep the sex offender out of working in a church nursery, yes, it's to protect children, but it's also to protect the sex offender. Because if if he is a believer and a a disciple of Christ, and he truly seeks to follow, but he has legitimate struggles, I don't wanna put him in a position to fall because I love him.

Derek: 26:40

And and I I know that's hard and, for me to be saying something like that, somebody who's never sexually abused, and I don't know anybody very close to me in my immediate family who's sexually abused, I know that that's easy for me to say. And I get that. Nevertheless, we can we can acknowledge that Jesus Christ seeks forgiveness for all, restoration of all, and love for all. And just because I haven't experienced that doesn't mean that I can't observe that that's a truth. Hopefully, I just observe it in a way that is is not offensive and that that is helpful for people who may have difficulty relating to that.

Derek: 27:29

And if boundaries are are part of forgiveness and and reconciliation, and if they are important, and if the goal is relationship, then we do need to understand that boundaries are different than than severing relationships. A lot of times people like to like to think that by putting gulfs in between relationships, they like to think that these gulfs are, are good, but they're they're not. They're different. So for example, some boundaries for somebody might be not allowing them in your house. And with with Alexa, it might be, especially at first, that she doesn't come into our house.

Derek: 28:19

Maybe we but but that doesn't mean we don't meet her. It doesn't mean we don't go to her house or we don't meet out in public or we don't meet outside the walls of our house. We might not meet alone. It might be something that, I did this on the diaconate. It wasn't so much for forgiveness.

Derek: 28:35

It was more for protection. But, you know, especially if you're working with, a woman as a a single guy, or a guy working alone, I'm not gonna meet alone with a woman. That's just not not wise. And it might be in in, forgiving somebody that it's something that is just not safe emotionally or physically or whatever to meet somebody alone or in a private place, but you'd wanna do it in public. Maybe you only meet somebody in the presence of a counselor.

Derek: 29:08

Maybe you don't have an ongoing relationship. Maybe you only meet somebody once, but you meet so that you can forgive and, so that you can work through the issues and be at a peaceable place when you part ways. Maybe there's communication from a distance, or maybe you have expectations which leave the ball in their court. Maybe they're abusive, and so you just you can't meet them in person. Talking on the phone is emotionally abusive.

Derek: 29:38

They're unwilling to meet with a counselor. And you say, look. These are these are my expectations. It is too painful for me to meet with you, until until there are some, some boundaries or barriers that you're willing to to tear down because you have erected these relational barriers, not me. Until you're ready to meet with a counselor, we can't talk.

Derek: 30:04

But notice that that those barriers, or boundaries are much, much different than just completely severing a relationship and saying, get out of my life. They are looking for some sort of restoration in the relationship where the 2 parties are able to to part ways, sometimes continuing the relationship, sometimes, not really continuing the relationship, but being at a place where the relationship is is not harboring ill towards the other. The best example I can see of of this played out in the church, in the Bible, is in first Corinthians 5. We see that there's an adulterous man. He is sleeping with his, stepmom, I believe.

Derek: 30:53

And Paul tells the Corinthian church, he says, hey, look. This guy's unrepentant. K? You're basically gonna excommunicate him from the church. You you are unable to have him in the presence of your church because he is he is defiling it.

Derek: 31:09

He's ruining the testimony of the church, and he might bring other people down. It is just not safe for your protection. You need to not allow him into the church. But, also, for this man's protection, we need to pray that, I think it says that his flesh is delivered to Satan so that his soul might be saved. So they're praying that, they do want him to repent, and they do want restoration.

Derek: 31:40

But if that doesn't come, they recognize that this guy is on very shaky spiritual ground, because he is he's continuing, he's persisting in this wickedness. And And so they say, look. We we still want his soul to be saved. So, man, pray that pray that something happens to him so that that God will salvage his soul, even if that means the destruction of his flesh. They seek, Paul is telling people to seek the church's good, their own good, and the good of the offender.

Derek: 32:14

And the beautiful thing is once that man does repent, and we see in second Corinthians that he has, Paul says, okay. Okay. Okay. He repented. Let up on the guy.

Derek: 32:26

Alright? We don't need to keep this hanging over his head. Like, remove the barriers. And that's what barriers and boundaries are are there for. They are there so that when the individual who marred the relationship decides to to, to repent, that those barriers can be taken down.

Derek: 32:51

Now, my own life, forgiveness has always been a pragmatic endeavor. I refused to forgive people who offended me, in large ways or those who just weren't sorry. You know, I can hold a a grudge for the against those people because they're not sorry. Or rather than erecting barriers and boundaries, I would sever relationships rather than, seeking restoration. If if I am not leaving room for restoration, then I I am not forgiving.

Derek: 33:30

In my mind, forgiveness has never been, a a necessarily a good character trait to have, to be forgiving. Now, instead, forgiveness has been a tool. Or maybe a currency. However you wanna look at it. I'd use it to try to fix relationships that I thought could be fixed, or relationships in which I wasn't gonna be hurt again, or relationships in which I thought the other person deserved it.

Derek: 34:02

But if the other person didn't deserve it, if what they did was too big or if I didn't want restoration and I wanted to be able to to be mad at them, then it was really, leverage or or a tool to use against them. Because for me to refuse restoration and forgiveness was, in some ways, to to punish them so that it was always hanging over their head. And what's the point of forgiving somebody who who it's not worth wasting that forgiveness on? But our choice to forgive must not be based on utility or probable outcomes. It needs to be based on the immense forgiveness that we ourselves have received.

Derek: 34:45

It isn't very practical to do that. It certainly isn't easy to do that. In fact, it's often very foolish and costly in in terms of the way that we think. But that's God's way. And thank God that it is because if it weren't, then I'd be lost.

Derek: 35:05

So would you. That's all for now. So peace, because I'm a pacifist. When I say it, I'm