Derek: 00:28

Welcome back to the Fourth Wave podcast. Today's episode will draw our official season on Government to a close. Since this was such a lengthy season that covered a lot of different angles, I wanted to try to pull everything together into something cohesive. I know I already had a somewhat of a conclusion prior to like our our interview episodes and such, but I wanted to after all of that, because there's so much more content still, I wanted to kind of have a a second conclusion. So what are the the big takeaways from the season?

Derek: 01:03

Before I get into those, I I do want you to note that this episode is going to be extremely condensed, an extremely condensed summary of the season. I don't want you to listen to this episode alone and decide your views on government or decide that I'm wrong. It's hopefully a good outline and a jumping off point for you to start here, but this is not meant to stand alone. It is a conclusion of a season where we talk about the takeaways that we can have. So let's dive in.

Derek: 01:34

For me, my starting place when it comes to government is Christianity, and I absolutely have to begin there, and and stay there, really. A lot of people are gonna tell me that as a Christian, my Christian tradition should be to accept war and government because that's really the long standing Christian tradition. And since Augustine really, Constantine, March, I I mean, war and violence has been a part of what Christians have accepted. And while I do value tradition, my goal is to emulate the tradition which gets me the closest to the heart of Jesus, because Jesus is the pinnacle, not, you know, Constantine, not the Middle Ages, not the Reformation. My pinnacle is Jesus Christ.

Derek: 02:23

When we look at how the Anti Nicene Church handled violence and politics, the the church before the Nicene Creed, before Constantine, they avoided church and politics like the plague. At the same time, they refused to avoid the plague like the plague. They were jumping back into cities where there was the plague, and they were helping people. They they cared about positive justice and the way that they moved forward in the world was to be with the poor and the sick and the dying. The Anti Nicene Church ran into the midst of hardship.

Derek: 02:58

They made decisions that were often not the pragmatic ones in regard to maintaining or wielding or grasping at power. They knew that their lives were in God's hands and they did the right thing because it was the right thing, not because it seemed to work or get them ahead. Christendom and the post Constantinian church is a move away from that tradition in regard to violence and in regard to government. Jesus is the king and there is no king but Christ. All other self proclaimed kings are usurpers.

Derek: 03:33

But I know what everyone's gonna say to this, right? Okay. Even if we grant that violence is problematic for Christians, why does that have to preclude us from government? Can't we be anti capital punishments, kind, gentle rulers? It seems to me that at the higher levels of government, that's impossible.

Derek: 03:52

The last and only, as far as I know, pacifist president was Woodrow Wilson, and he took us into World War One. And Nixon, with his Quaker association, kept us fighting and killing and murdering in Vietnam. When you're a commander in chief, you can't help but do violence, and Aiden Balu lays this out so well in his work which we which we took an episode to discuss against government. Our constitution lays out what our government can do and we have a commander in chief, and so to participate in what is constitutional that is used to do great evils is it's got our name slapped all over it. But going even further down the food chain, you know, I can't see how somebody can be a legislator without doing violence.

Derek: 04:39

Every single law made is enforced by the end of the sword. And if our commander in chief is problematic for Christians, and creating laws to rule over our neighbors by the sword is problematic, then how can we vote for these positions and become accomplices to the violence? What is voting backed by coercive force rather than tyranny of the majority? Is there much of a difference in the end result between the tyranny of a majority and the tyranny of a minority? In either case, the other group is forced to comply via the threat of force and violence.

Derek: 05:15

Now, I think it's reasonable to think that a Christian may be able to participate in government as, say, a postal worker, or a public school teacher, or maybe even a low level official in the county. Those are obviously context dependent, but I don't think that government itself is problematic. I mean, what is government exactly? When a few people get together in their neighborhood and make a decision, or church establishes an an ecclesial body, isn't that in a sense government? So it's not the formation of groups which makes decisions or performs actions for a community which is problematic, but it's rather that when the coercion and violence come into play, that's when it's a problem.

Derek: 05:55

And when coercion and violence are written into your constitution and laws, how can you participate in those? This is where I think a lot of the non violent community, particularly the liberal side, goes wrong. They may despise Stalin for his violent form of socialism, but they praise Bernie Sanders for his democratic socialism. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not equating Bernie to Stalin, but how would Bernie accomplish his socialistic goals? Through the use of force, of course.

Derek: 06:26

If he raises taxes or increases the minimum wage, how is he going to get that money? How is he gonna acquire it? It's not through donations, but through the government saying, give me your money or else. And if you don't pay, please come to your house, seize your property, throw you in jail, and if you resist having your goods taken from you, they might end up shooting you. It doesn't matter whether you're a Democrat or Republican, Socialist or Capitalist, your government runs on the threat of and capacity to carry out violence.

Derek: 06:59

We did take a look at Capitalism and Socialism a little this season, and this is also where I part ways with a lot of Christian Anarchists and people in my conservative Christian community. I just don't see socialism as inherently worse than capitalism. Capitalism, as run by the government, may look shinier, but the deck is stacked in its favor. The US has staged coups, overthrown and assassinated democratically elected leaders, embargoed, sanctioned, and every other dirty trick in the book to countries that sought to escape the oppression of empire. Iran, Cuba, Guatemala, and Haiti are just a few of the worst examples.

Derek: 07:38

At the same time, we have propped up horrendous dictators who tortured people and made their opposition disappear. We supported all sorts of guerrilla terrorists in South America, a torturous and murderous dictator in Iran, Fulgencio Batista's reign of terror in Cuba, Al Qaeda's terrorism against Russia, and currently, Saudi Arabia's genocidal exploits in Yemen. Capitalism doesn't look like shiny Las Vegas. Well, I guess it does on the outside, but that's a facade. Capitalism may have created the bright lights of Vegas and the comfort of your gated community, but it also created the Havels in Haiti, the malnutrition and cognitive disorders of the starving children in Yemen, and so much more.

Derek: 08:23

At the same time, communist countries like Cuba may have their human rights violations in their own country, but they're also altruistic, sending medical workers across the world. They fought against the apartheid system in South Africa, and they harbored African Americans who were unlawfully targeted by the FBI during the civil rights movement. What Americans usually do is they judge The United States by our shiny facade, and the communist nations by their internal disorder. Even though our sanctions prevent those communist nations from prospering, and our assassination attempts and attempted coups cause them to be harsh to their citizenry and paranoid. As just one example, there's supposedly over 600 plots by The United States to kill Castro alone.

Derek: 09:05

And don't forget that Castro rose to power by overthrowing a US backed tyrant who came into power through a coup we initiated. So I part ways here with many of my compatriots who were anti socialism and all gung ho about capitalistic backed government. Government's government, and they're gonna do what government's gonna do. And if it looks all shiny and nice, it's likely a facade that masks the violence and terror it exports and the labor it's exploiting. And if a government looks 100% terrible to you and like they're always in the wrong, then you've probably been brainwashed and your history begins when your nation wants it to begin.

Derek: 09:43

We hate Iran because of the hostages they took, but don't know about the overthrow of their democracy and installation of a dictator. We hate Cuba because Castro overthrew the government, yet we don't know that the government he overthrew was illegitimate and tyrannical, and one of our own creation and support. And the list goes on. Government is government. It's wicked, violent, and self interested.

Derek: 10:06

But on top of being wicked and violent, we also delved into the idea that government is ineffective. Conservatives have no problem recognizing government's fiscal ineptitude and don't want government to get involved in the economy. They tend to recognize that government screws things up. At the same time, liberals see government's malice and ineptitude in a different way. We spent a number of episodes discussing CRT throughout our season, and this discipline astutely recognizes that legislation is often politically self serving.

Derek: 10:37

Civil rights cases coincidentally started to win at the same time we pitted ourselves against communism on the world stage. Godless communism, mind you. We had blacks fleeing to communist Cuba and communists calling out our human rights violations, so we started granting civil rights and slapping God onto our currency and into our pledge, while the president started national prayer breakfast. And just when we started to give blacks their vote back, we just so happened to start the war on drugs and targeted minority communities. And all of a sudden, blacks are disenfranchised once again.

Derek: 11:12

We see this kind of thing happen over and over and over again. People wanna prop up the government because they think that it does so much good, and it definitely does some wonderful things, but the problems that it seeks to solve are often problems of its own creation, problems it fabricates or exaggerates to gain power, or problems that the private sector could solve more efficiently and justly. Centralizing power is often extremely ineffective and it arguably causes more and larger problems than it solves. So what are Christians to do with this information? Once again, this is where I break ranks with my Christian anarchists.

Derek: 11:51

I'm often dismayed by the Christian anarchist community because they're they're so angry and vitriolic. They're always railing against the government. Now don't get me wrong. I think the government does horrendous things, and due to the centralization of power, it does these horrible things on a scale unimaginable by individuals. But my role as a Christian isn't to rail against the state.

Derek: 12:13

I'm not gonna spend my time doing that. Sure, I will refuse to obey orders that conflict with God's law, and I will prophetically call out the state or anybody else where they are going against God's law. But I don't need to fight tooth and claw to tear something down. The mask mandates are a perfect example of this. I don't like wearing masks, and I question how effective it really is.

Derek: 12:38

I know I know it's a little bit effective, but how effective is it really to make it a mandate? But if it helps a little, if it allays the fears of others, and if the government tells me to do it, then like the Chinese house church, I'll just do it. Sure, the government may use this as a stepping stone to more control, and I can voice those concerns and ask questions as to the reasoning behind mask mandates. But to be so rights oriented and focused on railing against the state for mask mandates, that's not at all a Christian posture that I think we're supposed to have towards the state. This was particularly clear to me when I did the interview with Hannah Nation and asked her how the Chinese house church responded to governmental mandates.

Derek: 13:20

And she said that the Chinese church sought to be good citizens whenever they could, and they were very compliant. Now that's a church which knows persecution and government control, yet their posture is one of submission, with a focus on being good citizens and compliant where they can. This is something that I don't see much in the Christian anarchist community, and something that I think Christians need to think a lot about. Yes, the Bible is very strongly against empire, but the way that Christians are to combat that isn't by tearing down the government. Christian Anarchism should not be a negative politic, a politic which seeks to demolish.

Derek: 13:59

Instead, Christian Anarchism ought to work by being a positive politic, the offering of an alternative kingdom. We should be the best and most compliant, thoughtful citizens, but we ought to go way beyond what the government does in our love and concern for our community. Christ's kingdom doesn't require us to first topple the kingdoms of this world. He already has power over them. He's already toppled them.

Derek: 14:23

The Gospel is a declaration that the kingdom is already here now, and that Jesus is king now. In fact, our grasping at the kingdoms of this world to tear them down is in some way a disavowal of this truth of Christ's kingdom. It's kind of hypocritical Christian anarchism. These little k kingdoms are nothing. They're fictitious.

Derek: 14:45

Why would I try to chip away at them? No. Rather than play their game, I let them be them and instead reveal the truth through my life and through Christ's politic, the church. Finally, there are two ultimate conclusions that I think we should have as Christians in regard to government. First, as Peter and Paul declare, God is in control.

Derek: 15:10

That's what Romans thirteen one through seven is all about. Caesar may play at being God and king, but there's only one true God and king, and it's not Caesar. Second, we ought to acknowledge that government does indeed serve a restraining purpose on evil. I think Christian Anarchists do themselves a disservice when they fail to acknowledge any good that the state does because the Bible clearly acknowledges this. There are a number of passages in the Bible which I think declare this, but, you know, Psalm 34 is probably one of my favorite.

Derek: 15:41

In there, it says that evil will slay the wicked. Whereas another passage puts it, the one who digs a pit to ensnare others will fall into it himself. Every government runs on violence, arrogance, idolatry, selfishness, and the whole litany of other vices. But in their own self interest and evil, governments do accomplish some good. Nobody wants to be murdered, so governments catch and contain murderers.

Derek: 16:07

That's a good thing, right? That murderers are prevented from future murder, that justice is served and further evil is restrained? That's good. But the question for a Christian isn't whether the government accomplishes some goods, but rather, as Paul, Augustine, and many others have formulated, can we do evil that good may come? Romans thirteen one through seven may be a go to passage for those who love government, but Romans 12 is the resounding preface to Paul's short discussion on God's sovereignty over government.

Derek: 16:40

And Paul's answer is that love wins. Christians must extend this love to enemies, and that means leaving vengeance to God. God is in control even over Caesar, and we ought to trust God's sovereign hand and not become evil in order that we can be the wicked instruments which slay the wicked. So I will acknowledge that I am thankful for the laws of our land which deters some murders and prevent others from happening by punishing murder. But while the wicked may be slain by evil, that doesn't mean that I approve of the evil instrument at all.

Derek: 17:16

In all things, I know that God is in control. I don't have to spend my days fighting for my rights or bemoaning the wicked empire in which I live. Instead, I want to spend my time living in the reality which I know exists, in the kingdom of heaven where Christ reigns even as I speak right now. Through my life and my posture, I wanna spend my time declaring this gospel message of victory, and not only declaring it, but displaying that to the world through the church. There is no king but Christ, and He has liberated the captives.

Derek: 17:50

In light of that, let us not live in captivity to our desire to take control or to slay the wicked, whether that be wicked individuals, groups, or governments. Let us instead be the hands and feet of our king. There is no king but Christ. That's all for now. So peace, and because I'm a pacifist, when I say it, I mean it.

Derek: 18:37

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