Derek: 00:28

Welcome back to the Fourth Wave podcast. We spent the last two episodes in our Bonhoeffer series looking at the formation of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's sense of justice, especially justice in regard to those who are being oppressed, and how these eyes for the downtrodden likely helped Bonhoeffer to see through Nazi propaganda before almost everyone else did. But you may have also gotten a sense from my discussion, particularly with, Doctor Williams, at the end when we talked about the book that he's currently working on related to Bonhoeffer's imperialistic worldview, a view which would have fostered a large scale systemic paternalistic injustice and racism. From that, you might have gotten a sense that, there are, in fact, some who even denounce Bonhoeffer for some of these unjust ideas like imperialism. Now, I would say that most people probably think of Bonhoeffer as standing against Nazism and for the Jews and as an overall just kind of person.

Derek: 01:40

And I think that's true. But there is also another angle to the story that we really need to explore. For example, you might be surprised to learn that Jerusalem has denied Bonhoeffer status as a righteous Gentile, a status of recognition given to some who are exemplary in their stand for Jews against Nazi Germany. I mean, Bonhoeffer seems like just the type of guy who should be considered a righteous Gentile to most people who think that they know Bonhoeffer's story, right? So why has Bonhoeffer been denied this status?

Derek: 02:17

Well, from my understanding, it was denied because there were some of Bonhoeffer's views that the Jews deemed anti Semitic, and these views that Bonhoeffer, at least at one point, held, if not continuously held. My understanding is that these ideas that Bonhoeffer held, they center around the ideology of supersessionism or replacement theology, which Bonhoeffer seems to hold at least at one point. It's this idea that the Church has replaced Israel or the Church has been revealed as the true chosen people in the divine plan, and they have superseded or replaced Israel in God's covenant plan. So it wouldn't exclude the Jews from this, right, because you could still be from the nation of Israel, you could still be a Jew and be part of God's covenant people. It it expands the the the group, right?

Derek: 03:22

But it's no longer Israel is a special people. But more than that, Bonhoeffer also seemed to believe, again, at least at one point, not sure that you could follow this all the way through to the end, but at least at one point, he believed that the great hardship that the Jews seemed to perpetually face, no matter where they went, the oppression by by various people groups throughout history, especially, you know, in the recent European history and the persecution of the Jews. Bonhoeffer expressed that he thought this was a continuing judgment of God on them for their participation in the crucifixion of Jesus for deicide. Now these views are declared as antisemitic by many in Israel. And so Bonhoeffer, as far as I know to this day, remains a controversial figure, especially in the Jewish community.

Derek: 04:22

Now someone renowned for helping the Jews by the broader culture is by the Jews or by many Jews in Israel at least is rejected. So I wanted to talk about that, about some of these ideas a little bit in this episode, because the last thing that I want to do is to create an a season or even an episode where I build somebody up to to this level that just really goes beyond reality and beyond human nature of of somebody who is a flawed human being. And I don't want to act here like Bonhoeffer is this completely uncontroversial figure in regards to his integrity or viewpoints or whatever else. And that's one reason that I really appreciate that Doctor. Williams is working on a book that explores one aspect of this controversy, particularly the imperialistic aspect.

Derek: 05:21

And this whole tearing down of hero complexes is something that that I'm really a big fan of. In fact, I had a whole episode on the problem of hero complexes way back in season nine. And there we took a look at several Biblical figures, which we tend to consider heroes of the faith and Christianity, who upon closer inspection are extremely problematic. There are lots of these people, but Joseph was probably one of my favorite examples because his waywardness is is a whole lot more subtle than someone like David who murdered and committed adultery and all kinds of things. With Joseph, right, he seems like he's kind of a jerk at the beginning, But then all of a sudden he changes and we see Joseph's great faith in God, his integrity in Potiphar's household, his enduring hope, and his deep love and forgiveness for his brothers, something that I think would be difficult for most of us to do.

Derek: 06:24

All of these are undeniably great things, right? But in our heroization of Joseph, we overlook the fact that by the end of his story, Joseph has used a catastrophe to take all of the Egyptian peasant's land, their livestock and their money. And he's given all that power, all those resources to Pharaoh, essentially creating an empire, you know, a state run nation and basically enslaving the people of Egypt. Now, this was an act which I don't know, but it may have come back to haunt Joseph's descendants, when a new pharaoh saw the disparity between free Israelites and his beleaguered and indentured people and decided to make Egypt great again. I don't know what all went into that, but it certainly seems like it's a it's a pretty big setup, where there's this huge wealth and freedom disparity between Joseph's people and the people that Joseph helps to enslave.

Derek: 07:27

Now, whether it's Joseph, Gideon, David, the so called heroes of the faith, they're almost always also villains of the faith in some way, people who are extremely flawed in very unjust ways. They're people who held to some pretty terrible ideas, engaged in grave injustices, or had some significant moral failings, or all of the above. So when I come to the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and find that he may have had problematic beliefs, it's not necessarily a disqualifying piece of information for me. I can condemn him where he needs to be condemned while praising him where he ought to be praised. Did Dietrich Bonhoeffer see through Hitler's propaganda before most others?

Derek: 08:17

Yes. Did Bonhoeffer hold a high view of Jews and helped to save some despite the majority culture around him pressuring him otherwise? Yes. Did Bonhoeffer show moral integrity in refusing to give in to the Nazi regime? Yes.

Derek: 08:34

Great. And I want to be like Bonhoeffer in those ways, in ways that many who may have had a less problematic ideology actually failed to act out of a fear of their own well-being. So I think then that there are many of Bonhoeffer's critics and counselors who are really straining at gnats here. This group is myopic in that they can't see past the minutiae of Bonhoeffer's ideology. They want every jot and every tittle to line up in order to divvy out praise.

Derek: 09:08

But there's also another group out there which has a different but somewhat similar problem. And one way we might say this is that, rather than myopia, their problem is due to hyperopia. They can see the big idea in Bonhoeffer's story, that Bonhoeffer saved the Jews, he was a courageous hero, and they completely run with that. Yet they fail to note the small level details that do matter. They fail to note that Bonhoeffer was fighting against fascism.

Derek: 09:41

He was fighting the co opting of the church by the state, and he was fighting the imperialist and ethnic propaganda. This hyperopic group, they take Bonhoeffer's heroic stand against the state and they make it their own, all while flirting with fascism themselves, allowing figureheads to co opt the Church here and embracing imperialism and ethnic superiority now. This hyperopic group imputes Bonhoeffer's righteousness to themselves, making it their own. His stand was their stand and they take that stand and import it into modern day without working through any of the nuances and implications of what actually brought Bonhoeffer to make his stand. They think that by mere act of standing, that makes them similar to Bonhoeffer, while failing to recognize that they've got their stiff right arms extended up in the air.

Derek: 10:38

This group fails to recognize that we aren't propagandized about the same things or in the same way. They haven't taken the time or the care to assess their moral values and commitments. They just assume that what they've been fed is good, and so to stand is good. The problem with this is that the oppressed and the downtrodden, the groups that we other, aren't all the same today as they were back in Bonhoeffer's day. So while our stand ought to look the same in regard to the faithful integrity and courage that Bonhoeffer showed, we should expect that what we need to stand against may take a different form unless we find ourselves standing with the oppressors rather than the oppressed.

Derek: 11:25

At the very end of the new Bonhoeffer film, the words never again appeared. This concept, never again, has been used a whole lot in my lifetime. And usually, it's used in reference to the Holocaust at the hands of the Nazis. While the Holocaust by the Nazis was aimed especially at the Jews, there were many other groups that were targeted as well. So this idea of never again, it's intended to mean that we will never again allow for the othering or targeting of groups of people which could lead to their mass oppression and murder.

Derek: 12:03

Now, at this point, we could quibble about definitions and percentages, right? I don't think that never again means we simply want to avoid the murder of two thirds of any ethnic population in a given region, right? I don't think that's what never again means. I would imagine that never again wouldn't be happy with a massacre of half or even a quarter or a tenth of any population, right? We don't want massacres and tragedies to occur, especially based on this othering principle.

Derek: 12:36

So never again is more of a qualitative statement than a quantitative one, which makes its sentiment, you know, maybe even more subjective and ambiguous. I mean, did targeting civilians and infrastructure, killing fifteen percent of the North Korean population constitute something of which we would include in the slogan Never Again? Did bombing Cambodians, creating the Pol Pot regime, and then supporting the Khmer Rouge up through the late 80s after we knew the atrocities that they did? A regime that killed 25% of the population? Should that have been included in the idea of Never Again?

Derek: 13:17

What about the killing of 15% of the North Vietnamese population? What about the failure to intervene in a Rwandan genocide that killed 10,000 people a day? What about the killing and starvation of over half a million Iraqi children? Or if we move on to lesser crimes, oppression rather than large scale massacres, dehumanization rather than outright murder, then would never again include the continued support of apartheid South Africa through its existence? What about continued support of Jim Crow South for twenty five years following the Holocaust?

Derek: 13:58

What about the de democratizing and installation or support of ruthless dictators in Libya, The Congo, Iran, Chile, and countless other countries. You know, perhaps our slogan shouldn't be never again, but just rather again. The MO of empire is again and again and again and again. But each again is different. Sometimes the again happens subtly to a group of people we don't know or care about and are therefore unaware of, like say in Libya or The Congo.

Derek: 14:35

Sometimes the again comes about when we are propagandized by fear, as in the evasion of Iraq for weapons of mass destruction. Sometimes that again comes as a result of othering a group of people, giving them labels like terrorists or communists. And sometimes that othering comes simply as a result of economic interests. Why waste American lives valuable lives mind you, and money of course, helping Rwandans? Where s Rwanda?

Derek: 15:08

What benefit is that to us? So, again, again. But when we read these words, never again, at the end of a Bonhoeffer film, let's be honest, a lot of us like it. We love watching films like Bonhoeffer because just like when we read our favorite Bible stories, we're the good guys. We're the heroes.

Derek: 15:37

We're the ones in the stories standing up to evil with great courage shouting, Never again! And we're right, to a certain extent. I mean, I think if you transported our society back into 1940 Germany, a lot of us would stand up to Hitler. Some of us would be cowards, for sure, but there'd be a whole lot more who would stand up, I think. But that's really a low bar, isn't it?

Derek: 16:05

That's like saying that if you could go back in time and dump all your life savings into $19.98 Amazon stock or $20.10 Bitcoin, you would. Well, of course you would. You see Amazon for what it is now because you have the power of hindsight. So of course, 1940 Hitler wouldn't convince you of his position. You were the product of a different culture.

Derek: 16:30

You have different passions. You have different motivations. Of course, you'd see through him. The question isn't whether or not you would have stood up to 1940 Hitler or even if you'd stand up to that very same Hitler were he to reincarnate himself today. The question is would you stand up to the manifestation of othering and oppression that presented itself to you in the clothing of modernity?

Derek: 16:53

Would you stand up to the current false prophets which few others can see, which most others don't want to see? The Antichrist of whose denunciation could cost you social standing or economic well-being. Let's all be honest here: if history teaches us anything, you probably wouldn't see the threat, let alone stand up to it. You probably don't see it and aren't standing up to it. And that's because propaganda is a chameleon.

Derek: 17:23

It doesn't look like today what it looked like fifty years ago. It blends in with its current environment. We can see the dead chameleons of the past because they can no longer change their colors. But it's hard to see their progeny which are alive, which propagate themselves in the cultures and subcultures around the globe. And just as they did in the past, these propaganda chameleons of today, they serve to create enemies and saviors.

Derek: 17:53

Propaganda continues to make atrocities possible or to make them unbelievable to make us hate another group so much that we could believe their destruction is our salvation, or to give us so much faith in our own Saviors that we couldn't possibly believe they would do anything wrong. And when the killing of others or the impunity of ours morphs from a loss into a gain, it's again in disguise a chameleon. Now I would argue that this is where we are today, in one of the most current and tragic agains. One myopic group is proclaiming that we have to uphold them as the incorruptible and honorable victims of the world. Their propaganda is to make atrocity unbelievable they couldn't possibly be guilty of such things.

Derek: 18:48

And the other hyperopic group, thinking that they're the saviors on the right side of history, are making America great again. They're making atrocities possible by pointing out who our enemies are. And as the Bonhoeffer film ended and I saw the words Never Again appear on the screen, I couldn't help but think about these groups and the current conflict, the current tragedy, the current genocide going on in Gaza right now? How is it that the very group from whom this idea of never again was birthed are some of the main culprits in the new again? There's a lot we would need to talk about here in order to give the issue its full treatment.

Derek: 19:34

We'd have to discuss the rise of Zionism, the Sykes Picot Agreement, the Nakba, the Arab Israeli Wars, Intifadas, Dispensationalism, Supersessionism, and a host, a host, whole host of other issues. But that's not really the scope of this episode or season, and I don't want you to get lost in that because honestly, none of that really matters in regard to discussing this again. See, for as much of a bad rap as some want to give Bonhoeffer for thinking that historical misfortune of the Jews might be attributed to the judgment of God, Bonhoeffer did not see that belief as a prerogative, a right, or desire to be the hand of judgment for him. If it just so happened that God allowed evil to befall the Jews as judgment for the crucifixion of the Messiah, that didn't negate God's call on the Christian life to be the hands of peace and justice, to deliver others from oppression and to call out the wickedness of those who oppress. Bonhoeffer pushed back against injustice towards the Jews even if we want to think that he thought their plight was God ordained.

Derek: 20:46

Nothing in their past justified the treatment of them as anything other than being image bearers of God. Whatever Bonhoeffer may have thought, he acted justly. But when we look at the situation in Gaza, those who are other than the Gazans, the Palestinians, their otherness is used as an excuse to slaughter them, majority non combatant men, women, and children. Their otherness is used as an excuse to force them into a concentration camp and to exterminate them, whole families at a time, directly with bombs or indirectly through starvation. There's a whole chasm between what Bonhoeffer is accused of thinking and what the current Zionist Israeli state is actually doing.

Derek: 21:35

The never again people are againing again. Last year on December 23, I released an episode talking about the tragedy in Gaza, discussing how the war drums were beating. A year has only made that episode more relevant as Israel has increased the horrors in Gaza and has now expanded their violence into Lebanon and Syria as well, and is now posturing bellicose with Iran. I mean, it's just it's just crazy. Only two days after my episode aired last year, Israel, on Christmas Day, attacked Bethlehem in the West Bank.

Derek: 22:17

And I anticipate that they'll do something similar again this year because humiliation and symbolism and doing their worst when their largest backers are preoccupied with Christmas or the Super Bowl or whatever else, that's kind of seemed to be their standard operating procedure. Israel is heaping tragedy upon tragedy and they are supported by many of the very same Christians who identify with Bonhoeffer's stand, who praise the current film, who laud Bonhoeffer as standing against this idea of never again. And this group, they're unable or unwilling to see that the chameleon of propaganda and atrocity has changed its colors. As I neared the end of writing this episode, I just felt like it was so incomplete. There are a hundred avenues that I wanted to explore here.

Derek: 23:14

So much nuance I wanted to unpack, rebuttals I wanted to preempt, questions I'm leaving unanswered. And that's the nature of all my seasons really, but, you know, there's always so much that I leave out. But I think it's much more for this episode. As I was thinking about it though, I recognize that so much of my ability to hear the oppressed has come not from succinct arguments, but really from time spent being discipled. I could spend another hour, five hours a season talking about this issue, and I think that could be beneficial, but that's not ultimately what is going to get somebody to change their mind on this issue.

Derek: 24:01

What changes your mind is discipleship. Bonhoeffer got his vision for the oppressed by hearing their stories and by being in community with them. And you got to hear a little bit of that in, in my episode with Doctor. Reggie Williams talking about Bonhoeffer's experience in Harlem. While I didn't spend time directly in the Black community or in the Palestinian community, our technologically connected world has allowed me to be discipled by them, by the Black community and the Palestinian community, and by other oppressed communities from around the globe.

Derek: 24:41

I have heard their voices in the pages of books. I have seen their stands in videos and documentaries. I've heard their cries on countless reels as they mourn the children taken from them. I have given them a voice in my life, and that voice rings true. I can see truth when I see darkness and light in those videos.

Derek: 25:04

And when I read the stories of darkness and light, truth becomes evident. As we approach Christmas this year, I want to challenge you to think about what it means that Jesus, the Prince of Peace, came into the world and what it means to be a disciple, a peacemaker, and a child of God. What impact should the way of Jesus have on your life as a Christian towards how you view the oppressed and how you view those that the world tells you are your enemies? Second, I want to challenge you. If you truly mean it when you say never again, to take a hard, honest look at who is discipling you, what their agendas are, what is the history behind them, and what is the practical nature of their actions, what they're calling you to do, and what they're trying to justify.

Derek: 25:59

Does that align with the Prince of Peace? I hope that you're willing to consider hearing the call of the Prince of Peace and that you will listen to the cries of the oppressed. My hope is that you will spend a lot of time thinking on this episode and taking a look in, in the notes that I'm going to put, below, because I'm going to put a bunch of different resources. I want you to be able to be discipled by the oppressed. So I'm going to put a number of resources that have been extremely helpful for me to hear them and to see them.

Derek: 26:34

And I hope you will step outside of your echo chamber and that you will consider who you are being discipled by. Please, please consider stepping outside of your echo chamber. And of course, if you go through those resources and you've got questions, pushback, you need more, I would be happy to dialogue with anybody who reaches out and contacts me. I'm very easy to find my contact information through website and social media and stuff. Finally, I do want to leave you with a poem written by a Palestinian professor named Rayfat Alarir.

Derek: 27:17

And I want to do that because I want to give him voice here, and because he recently released a book, or somebody, one of his friends released a book of some of his work. And it's something that I think is very moving, but also something that fits in well with this season, in this episode, and this topic. So this poem, my understanding is that it was a poem written for Doctor. Alarir's daughter. And Doctor.

Derek: 27:51

Alarir, whose only weapon was a pen, was targeted last year by Israel, murdered on 12/06/2023, along with a number of others in his household. His daughter, to whom the poem was dedicated, was killed only several months later. I think that Doctor. Aleria's poem is particularly pertinent here in the light of Bonhoeffer. Death is not only not the end of life as our souls will live on, but for those whose lives have touched others, it is not the end because their story carries on to touch others.

Derek: 28:31

In this way, both Doctor. Alerich's death and Dietrich Bonhoeffer's death are a gain in disguise. My prayer is that the gain of the stories will unmask the again of atrocities, and that many would be inspired by them to stand up against the evil of our day. Whatever you think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, his actions compelled others to tell his story so that we might never again allow evil to get to a place where it did in Nazi Germany. Likewise, Doctor.

Derek: 29:07

Story is being carried on for the people of Palestine, and never again we have yet to stop. I pray that you will hear Doctor. Alarir's words so that we never again have to hear another story like it. If I Must Die by Doctor. Rayfat Alarir If I must die, you must live To tell my story, to sell my things, to buy a piece of cloth and some strings, make it white with a long tail so that a child somewhere in Gaza, while looking heaven in the eye, awaiting his dad who left in a blaze, and bid no one farewell, not even to his flesh, not even to himself, sees the kite, my kite you made, flying up above and thinks for a moment an angel is there bringing back love.

Derek: 30:07

If I must die, let it bring hope. Let it be a tale.