Derek Kreider: 00:28

Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. In this episode, I had the privilege of interviewing Doug Smith, author of the book Unintentional. Especially if you are new to the world of propaganda, which, I guess if you've listened to the season, you probably aren't. But I highly recommend Doug Smith's book, because he does such a good job of, encapsulating the whole issue. And he gets a little bit of everything.

Derek Kreider: 00:58

He gets into the history all the way, you know, to Bernays and and, you know, one of the one of the fathers of propaganda. And he gets into the problem of propaganda, forming our desires. He gets into the hopefulness that we can have in fighting propaganda. I mean, he really covers everything in a really short and an accessible book. He puts it into terms that everybody can understand.

Derek Kreider: 01:26

It's a really good jumping off point, you know, for you to decide what other avenues to pursue to understand the topic further. But it's also really good because, you know, a lot of these other books, they are going to tell you the problems of propaganda, then the negative aspect, but unintentional also gets into the the positive formation. And especially if you're a Christian, from a Christian perspective. While, Doug Smith's book deals quite a lot with the the corporate aspect of propaganda, corporate and media. And that that's a really good thing to focus on because they are such big purveyors of propaganda.

Derek Kreider: 02:09

The reason that I am placing this episode here in the season is because, unintentional so much of its focus is more on the positive aspect of things, on the the formation and the discipleship aspect. So the reason I asked Doug to chat with me is because I wanted to talk about the discipleship aspect and, the aspect of, forming our affections. And sure, all of all of the forms of propaganda that we've talked about are going to form desires and affections and habits and those sorts of things, but especially corporate propaganda. You know, that's that's one of the things that we highlighted specifically about corporate propaganda is its ability to form our desires and its, focus there. So this was a really good episode to kind of rehash some of the things that we've uncovered in corporate propaganda, but also a good way to introduce us and, and to, and talk a little bit more about the idea of discipleship and affections and kind of uncover some of our Western, individualism and idea that, you know, we are intellectual beings apart from the physical and the habitual and all of those things that go into making us who we are.

Derek Kreider: 03:31

So without further ado, here is my interview with Doug Smith, the author of Unintentional. Again, I want to thank you for, for being willing, to to join me in a conversation. I I only came across your work a few a few weeks ago, probably, maybe maybe, 6 weeks. And, it was amazing because I'm I'm already about 2 thirds of the way through recording this season on propaganda. And when I listened to your book, it was just point after point after point after point that, that I've researched and discussed and, and thought through.

Derek Kreider: 04:11

So it was it was an awesome jam packed book that give a a huge synopsis, over over a lot of the things. But what I what I really appreciated about your book is that it's easy when you get into propaganda and conspiracies and all that kind of stuff. It's easy to be really negative and to just think our world is so terrible, and everybody's trying to manipulate me. What I really appreciated about your book is that a lot of what you do, the tone is always hopeful. You sound like you're very joyful.

Derek Kreider: 04:45

And, you you focus on positives. Like, okay, well, what do we do about this? And that's something that I don't find in a lot of other places. And of course, the audiobook is a bonus because I love all of your voices and, you know, from Star Wars and that kind of stuff. So I always love it when the author reads their own book.

Derek Kreider: 05:06

So could could you briefly describe your book and explain maybe what pushed you to write it?

Doug Smith: 05:13

Sure. Thank you, Derek. I'm super honored to be on your podcast and to talk about this with you, and I appreciate all your kind words. I did have a lot of fun recording the audiobook. I've been known to break into a Yoda voice at a moment's notice, and so, I might do that here.

Doug Smith: 05:26

I'm not ready to do that yet, but we'll see. Well, so my book is called Unintentional, How Screens Secretly Shape Your Desires and How You Can Break Free. And while I was developing the book, well, maybe just take a a step back. I come at this subject from the perspective of a dad of 4 daughters and a, a lifelong bible student and also a lifelong software developer. So I kind of bring a unique perspective, I think, to this conversation.

Doug Smith: 05:57

And when I was developing the book, I had, when I was talking to people about what I was writing, I realized that most people were unintentional in their adoption of today's addictive technology. I realized that I mean, the when you when you hear the statistics that people are on their devices 8 plus hours a day on average for entertainment screen time, that's social media video games, social, streaming videos and the like, and Teams and so on are much higher here. I mean, the stats are just nuts. 10, 11 hours a day. You know, that's amazing.

Doug Smith: 06:30

And yet it's what we're doing. And what I realized is that most people didn't mean to do that. We didn't sign up for that. And so why were they doing it? Well, it's because the industry is very intentional in how they make their experiences so addictive.

Doug Smith: 06:44

And, so so I really felt that burden. And as I watched the effect on even myself and other people, my family, friends, and I have close family members and others who are truly addicted and it's wrecked their lives in ways, I just felt this burden. And then I felt an additional call from God as I was praying about, Lord, what do I do with this burden? And so it became a 2 and a half year research project. It became, just a just a really a sense of wanting to collect and make this case that you need to as as you said, though, it's a very positive case.

Doug Smith: 07:20

I do spend a little bit of time laying out the problem pretty thickly, pulling it back to propaganda, which I think also was kind of unusual for the subject matter, pulling it back away, you know, a 100 years ago to Bernays and so on, and even then pulling it back further to the spiritual dimension. But then most of the book I spend just really encouraging people. You know what? You need to be more intentional with your life than the biggest companies of our age. And that if I can help someone do that, that's what I'm here for.

Derek Kreider: 07:50

Yeah. And I I especially love that you go all the way back to Bernays. And and it's amazing that you you do all that you do in such a short space because you you really do just cover the gamut of, of what's out there in propaganda. So it's it's a good, start for sure. So before we get into some of the the content of your book, one of the things that I noticed pretty quickly into the book is that you start naming a whole lot of different people.

Derek Kreider: 08:20

You know, Ed Fudge is is one that I like that, isn't on a lot of people's radar, but he's he's awesome. Augustine, Walter Wink, Rod Dreher, Greg Boyd, Charles Finney, CS Lewis, Dallas Willard, Rick Warren, Brother Lawrence, John Wesley, and and I'm sure I'm missing some. Now if you were to plot these guys on on a spectrum of Christianity, you know, they're not gonna fall in one one nice cluster here. They're gonna be all over the place. So you've been influenced by a lot of different people, and I love that because one of the things that you you know if you study propaganda is that polarization is one of the the key aspects of it.

Derek Kreider: 09:01

You know, us versus them, You've got to have some enemy that that you're fighting, you know, and the the propagandizer is gonna be your savior. And so you you really hear a lot of different voices. And and again, that gives credibility in my mind to your book. So how do you how did you come to be influenced by so many different thinkers? And, what value do you think that has in in a propagandized world?

Doug Smith: 09:27

That's such a great question, Derek. I appreciate you noticing that because, you know, recognizing that some of those figures are controversial and even to me, they would be in some of some of them, it it even makes people some Christians would read some of those names and go, well, I can't read that book because so and so. He cites so and so. So he must be a x, y, or z. So even we Christians have been propagandized in a way into our little camps to where we can't even hear a good argument from someone who might have a different view on this or that.

Doug Smith: 10:00

But I think I really credit my openness that way to my mentor, doctor Timothy Barnett, who I mentioned in the book as well. He discipled me in my late teens and early twenties when I first became a Christian and he he's both a brilliant scholar and a and a devoted disciple, humbly humble disciple, but he taught me basically to search for truth wherever it leads, based on the scriptures. So he taught me how to read the Bible. He taught me how to look back at the original languages and but he personally would do things like read the Quran, read the book of Mormon, even read the satanic Bible, and just to see what was out there, and so he could think about it and then understand it. I didn't I haven't read that broadly at all.

Doug Smith: 10:39

But, he was the one who introduced me to Charles Finney and his systematic theology, which he does not completely agree with either, nor do I. However, Finney's introduction is worth the price of the book if you ever read it. This is this is one of the things I just love, which I think is just a spirit of how any Christian should expose or should should, approach any subject really. And he said Finney says, I hold myself sacredly bound not to defend these positions at all events, but on the contrary to subject every one of them to the most thorough discussion and to hold them and treat them as I would the opinions of anyone else. So so he's basically describing what is objectivity?

Doug Smith: 11:20

Well, my views should be held out or like this, and if they can't withstand some of the best arguments to them, then they should we shouldn't hold them anymore. And if we're afraid to subject our views to those things, then what do we really have? Right? So, I've also engaged with atheists' discussions and, a lot of my kind of my other love of apologetics, and I've had I've had Christian friends fall away from the faith because they found the new atheist arguments more powerful than Christian arguments. So I've read, you know, Sam Harris and and Richard Dawkins and, you know, and found their arguments lacking, but reading them when you're in their when you're in their headspace, it can be a little challenging.

Doug Smith: 12:06

So but I've kind of gotten used to that. I've I'm one of the guys that loves those 4 views books, you know, 4 views of, of the end times, 4 views of of God's sovereignty, 4 views of hell, and all that. So I just like to know what's out there, and I I care very much about what's true. And so I've really exposed myself to that.

Derek Kreider: 12:25

Yeah. That's great. And that's, you know, I would add to that. I think for me, one of the things, reading and listening broadly does is it gives me empathy for the other group. You know, when you're talking about, propaganda, again, polarization is huge.

Derek Kreider: 12:40

And if you can cut some of that animosity that that, you know, wells up inside of you, that that's built up by the propagandizers, it really helps you to to kind of come to discussions cordially and respectfully and and really understand the other person's a human being. And, I I think that's that's a huge aspect. And you you can tell from your book that you you love and appreciate other people. So, even people you disagree with.

Doug Smith: 13:06

That's so true. I might just I might just mention, I think, that we all have some areas. Like, we're all going to, meet our maker and find that we didn't have it all right. But we'll also find out that we didn't have to have it all right. And I think I used to think that when I was early, I, I love theology.

Doug Smith: 13:27

I mean, I love studying things. I love understanding what's true. And I used to think that was the thing. And, but what I've what I've come to remember, what I've come to realize is that Christians, as Christians, we're not called to unanimity on our beliefs or doctrines or theology. We're called to unanimity of allegiance to God in King Jesus.

Doug Smith: 13:47

That's what we're called to be unanimous about. Everything else and as the world changes, more and more, I think those things kind of fall away. I think about Christians who are persecuted and, like, really persecuted in China or the Middle East or whatever. They're not arguing about some of the things we argue about. Right?

Doug Smith: 14:04

Some of our hot button issues that are really, really important that we divide over. They're not dividing over that. They're like, hey, are you with me on in this Jesus thing? Sure. Let's let's be friends.

Doug Smith: 14:13

Let's be brothers.

Derek Kreider: 14:15

Yeah. Yeah. That that goes to that verse, you know, they'll know you're my disciples by your love, you know, your love for one another. And, that's that's been something that's that's frustrated me, for a while now is that that doesn't seem to be at the forefront. It seems to be our doctrine doctrinal statement, you know.

Doug Smith: 14:34

Very true.

Derek Kreider: 14:37

So one of the things, you know, you talked about Timothy Barnett, and you talked about intellectuals and your love for apologetics. You know, you're you seem like an individual who is who's very focused on the mind. And so I think a lot of people might say, well, you know, then then why do you care so much about something like propaganda? Because, you know, those those commercials on on TV, or or that come up in between shows, like, who would fall for that? I know those things are just ridiculous.

Derek Kreider: 15:06

They're obviously trying to get me to buy something. And, you know, I know those those ladies in the car commercial, like, don't have anything to do with the car. Like, they can't trick me. I'm I'm too smart for that. I I think I had that idea, and I I think I still do.

Derek Kreider: 15:22

I think I still feel like it doesn't really get me, Even knowing what I know, I don't feel like it does. So but at the same time, you you kind of talk about this, and you say that, it actually propaganda impacts all of us just by consumption. And that it does this because it changes something more fundamental than our our surface beliefs. And we're so focused on, you know, what we just talked about, like what we believe. That's what we think really, really matters.

Derek Kreider: 15:56

But again, you talk about something more fundamental than that. It accesses, I think, you know, Jonathan Edwards talks about our affections, or, Augustine talks about the ordering of our loves. So, the ordering of our loves or our affections, they guide our actions. So can you can you explain how even ridiculous propaganda or propaganda that we we know on the surface, we know intellectually, is ludicrous. How does that still impact our affections just just by consuming them?

Doug Smith: 16:29

Yeah. That's a great question. I I was just like you thought the same thing. Like I'm I'm I can't I see through these things, you know, I'm not impacted by them. But I realized the more I got into it that I real that I really can be.

Doug Smith: 16:43

And so that's why I really limit my exposure to it, very dramatically because as much as I can, at least, I mean, we we swim in these waters. Right. But, what I bring into my house, what I bring into my life, I limit because I can be susceptible because these companies aren't spending 1,000,000,000 of dollars, on, you know, because my area of focus is as much more on the media, social media, you know, big tech, that kind of thing. But all the propaganda that we're receiving works and it works on the masses. And it works by what you just said.

Doug Smith: 17:17

It works by playing on what I call shaping our desires, helping us understand helping us, want what they want us to want, but they don't do that by, making a proposition in the form of an argument in a logical state. They don't say car commercials, for example, aren't saying premise a and premise b are true. Therefore, conclusion c must follow. They're saying just what you said. Look at this amazing car and look at this girl you can have if you buy this car.

Doug Smith: 17:47

Or even if you don't want this girl, she'll still think you're cool and you should still buy this car. You know? But what is that doing? That's playing on our basis desires. And so my my basically, my central argument is that we're being shaped by our immersion in this propaganda, in these screens.

Doug Smith: 18:02

And so it it really comes to its to a head when you think about what I call this double bind in the book. What we're first of all, we're fed all these culture messages, like, do what you feel is right. Go with your gut. Just do it. You know?

Doug Smith: 18:15

Just listen to your heart. You know? Like, the worst advice ever. Right? But we hear it so much that we're in the moment of decision.

Doug Smith: 18:21

Like, if you're in the crisis with your spouse and you're like, alright, sweetie, what should we do? Alright. Well, my gut's telling me. Alright. That's what that is actually doing.

Doug Smith: 18:31

Your gut is harkening back to someone's something somewhere. Someone made you feel something, and so therefore, you're going to do x, y, or z. So so they tell us these things, but then on the other hand, all the prop all of the propaganda is all about what you should feel, what your gut should say, what you should just do. And so we've got it on both sides. This this how do you make a decision in our culture?

Doug Smith: 18:55

It's based on what you feel, what you desire. And so then all the imagery, all the advertising, all the everything that goes viral, every movie, everything is all about what what we should want and got has us in this double bind. So, you know, are we afraid? Google is the answer. Are you lonely?

Doug Smith: 19:14

Well, social media is the answer or porn or binge watching or something. Are you hungry? Every commercial comes to you. You know? Are you bored?

Doug Smith: 19:22

What's on TikTok? You know, big tech is driving to become that top of mind. They want to be the first thing, and they're doing that by exploiting our behavioral psychology, which is why I pull it back to propaganda because that's exactly what propaganda does. So, some of the worst of it, as you talked about the deci the divisiveness, the us versus them, that's all driven by our our triggering on anger. And that's because all the especially all the social media platforms, but the main media are also driven towards exploiting us for outrage or optimizing our algorithms to make us angry because so we're triggered at a keyword.

Doug Smith: 19:59

They say if somebody says x, y, or z, what's what's our response? Our response is immediate anger or mocking or derision or whatever without thinking. So that's bypassed. What's that done? It's bypassed critical thinking, and it's made it so you've pushed my button.

Doug Smith: 20:13

I'm now angry with you. I don't really know why because I haven't really evaluated your argument. I haven't looked at you as a human being. So yeah. So that's that's the thing that, that propaganda does.

Doug Smith: 20:24

The other thing that today's propaganda does is it almost it it rules out even the possibility that some things could be true, because we can only know about things we're exposed to. And so, things don't enter our minds, like the notion of memorizing entire chapters of the Bible. Like, who in the world can memorize Psalm 1 19? A 176 verses. Like, is that even a thing?

Doug Smith: 20:47

Well, that was just what people did before we had the, you know, the the the, attention span of a gnat or whatever, you know, of a goldfish. What about, you know, just this this idea of self sacrificial devotion to God or family or others over a lifetime by persevering through unspeakable trials. You know, this idea of long term commitment and faithfulness, that's not that's not at all what our short term focused culture, you know, that says, you know, if it doesn't feel good, I'm out. You know? So so all those kind of things affect us at a very base level.

Doug Smith: 21:24

And, so, yeah, I think that whole shape of it affects us all unless we're extremely intentional in, combating it.

Derek Kreider: 21:33

Yeah. That's, that's really helpful. It's, you know, you you can't paint with a color you don't have on your palette. And, if if, people are giving you certain colors on your palette, even if you're like, well, I'm never gonna use that. When you get to a situation where where you just react, you know, you're gonna you're gonna reach into your toolbox or you're gonna, you know, go to that palette, and and you have access to what's there even if you never intended on using it.

Derek Kreider: 22:02

Reminds me of, I was watching, this this guy who, he's a pacifist down in in South America, and he was talking about some of the times that they were they were accosted by a bunch of people. And, so it happened numerous times. And he said the one time that he went into to his bedroom to get money, he there was a baseball bat in there that that they just had as a family, you know, to play baseball, not for self defense. And he was really tempted. And he's like, I just have to get that out of my house, because it's if it's there, you know, there's that tendency or temptation to use it even if you, in in the best of circumstances, never have any intention to do so.

Derek Kreider: 22:42

So that's helpful. So, you you know, we're like we talked about already, we're a lot of times very focused on on individualism, and we're very focused on on beliefs. How how do we form these these colors that we have in our palettes or these tools that we have in our toolboxes? If if we're like, okay, so I would love the idea of memorizing Psalm 119. That's that's not even on my radar.

Derek Kreider: 23:15

How do I how do I get it to get on my radar? Like, how do I I counter this propaganda? If propaganda is is forming these certain habits or affections in me, How do I do the opposite? How do I I form affections in myself?

Doug Smith: 23:30

That's so good. Such a good Chris. Good question. And that's that really is the subject of my book. That's what I'm hoping to accomplish by by encouraging people to recognize that there is another way there is.

Doug Smith: 23:42

And, and what's interesting is it's the same way that we've been teaching as Christians for 2000 years. It's just, you know, it's, it's classic spiritual disciplines. It's, but but it but it's applied to our cultural context. And what I'm trying to and as you said so well, I'm trying to give people other colors in their palette to understand that that this is possible and people do do this. You don't necessarily have to be Amish.

Doug Smith: 24:07

Although if God's calling you to be Amish, then I'm not bad at you for that. I think that'd be great. But, so I think the first thing to understand is to recognize what's happening. And that's why I spend so much time early on in under making you aware and also making you aware of the mechanism, and recognizing that that that the mechanism works both ways. So, I mean, to be clear though, first of all, our beliefs do matter a lot.

Doug Smith: 24:34

I'm not saying beliefs don't matter because, like Romans 12:12 talk about, you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So the the battle for our hearts and minds is waged on the field of our minds. But what we end up thinking about is so driven also by how we feel and our affections and our loves and so all of that works together. So, so so sometimes people who are focused very much on what we think can can start looking at us as if we were like disembodied brains in a vat or something. Right?

Doug Smith: 25:09

Like, we're just like, just get the right input and and the right output will come. And sometimes and and I've thought of it that way. I'm a software engineer, so that's how I think, but we are fully embodied and we are one thing, embodied people, embodied creations of God. So we have to recognize that what we do with our bodies matters. And, in fact, you had Drew Johnson on, who I love his work as well.

Doug Smith: 25:37

And, he's fantastic. And he talks about the whole notion of epistemology. What we know is true really happens from what we behave and how we behave and that's the biblical model of, how we come to know what's true. So what I have learned is that culturally and especially again, as I'm talking against big technology and their practices, they know what Deuteronomy 6 has told us for years, that what we do put into practice ends up shaping who we are. So Deuteronomy 6 talks about, first of all, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength.

Doug Smith: 26:20

Right? And then it says what? It says, teach these diligently to your children. Talk about it. When you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, when you rise up, put it on your bind it as a sign on your hands, write it as a signet on your forehead or a frontal on your forehead, write it on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

Doug Smith: 26:43

So what was that? That was the teaching that God gave the the the former slaves to rec recognize they had a whole bunch of slave mentality they needed to unlearn. So what do they need to do? They needed to immerse themselves all the time, in what was true, in order to what? Love God.

Doug Smith: 27:04

So, today though what happens when we're sitting in our home, when we're walking by the way or driving in our car, when we're lying down with a phone, when we're waking up with our phone, when we're, what do we have on our walls? What do we have, you know, on and on and on. Well, it's because they know, they know the propagandists ultimately know, and especially those who are making their propaganda through big technology know that what we think about all the time and what we immerse ourselves in matters. So the good news is on that though, is that our loves can change and they change by becoming disciples of a different way and embodying different practices. And so that's what my book really goes through is talking about, the idea of building in a new way of living, which starts with because I'm a Christian, surrender to Christ as King.

Doug Smith: 27:57

And from that, from that surrender, we start asking different questions. And like your baseball bat example, you know, what should I have in my home? Well, if I'm starting from a posture of surrender, what I should have in my home is an open question with open hands. And, I walk people through that. And then I walk people through a process of renewing our minds.

Doug Smith: 28:16

And it doesn't happen all the overnight. It doesn't we don't ultimately get, you know, weightlifter muscles by just deciding I want to be a weightlifter someday. You have to, you have to, build these, these practices in over time. And so it doesn't happen overnight and we can't expect it to, but the journey begins. And then we, we get stronger and stronger as we continue to apply an intentional lifestyle.

Doug Smith: 28:37

And if you want to, I can go into more detail on any of those other points, but that's that's really the heart of it.

Derek Kreider: 28:43

Yeah. I think we'll I think we'll get to some of those, in just a little bit and and, be able to hash those out. But what are the things that you were, you're talking about, how how the body is is important? You know, that's something that moving here to Romania and kind of, for the first time in my life being exposed to orthodox theology and and practice, that's something that that was noticeably different about, what they do. And it really did start to make me think, okay, well, it is it does seem, maybe, you know, whatever the the opposite of gnostic, maybe materialist or or something, to to just kind of like brains in the vat, like you said.

Derek Kreider: 29:28

Especially my denomination where we're, we self titled ourselves the frozen chosen, you know? And so it's kind of like, yeah, it's it's nice to see that dichotomy. And and it reminds me of, one of my wife's professors. She got her apologetics degree at, at Biola. And so one of one of her professors was talking about, you know, how how he never liked coffee.

Derek Kreider: 29:56

And so one day, he he and his wife move, and they're in this Sunday school class, this new Sunday school class where everybody drinks coffee. And he's like, well, you know, coffee's always around and everybody's always talking about it and drinking it. So he started drinking it even though he doesn't like it. And sure enough, it didn't take all that long. And his his affection for coffee changed even though it wasn't something that he, he desired originally.

Derek Kreider: 30:27

But because of the community he was in, he began to desire it. And after he acted upon that desire, his his, his love for it and and desire for it grew, and therefore his action in drinking, it grew. And so it was it was kind of something that, that that was triggered for me when talking about propaganda. Because it's it's it's like, okay, well, sometimes you just have to if you do the action, then then desires and and more action will follow, and and talks about how we form ourselves the other way.

Doug Smith: 31:08

Yeah. Exactly. That's exactly right. That's a form of discipleship. It's it's, it's, discipling along the ways of how we behave.

Doug Smith: 31:16

And, and that behavior then ends up forming what we want. And then what we want ends up forming what we do. And it is a feedback loop for good or ill.

Derek Kreider: 31:26

And and what's really important there, I think, for for us as Christians to understand is that this this professor, if he's sitting on his couch, or if he's, you know, staying in the world that he's in, he's never going to come to light coffee because he's never going to choose to drink it. It's when he gets into a new community that, because of those relationships, he he begins to desire to desire coffee that he's able to to to transform. And I think that's, you know, talking about Christianity as an alternative kingdom. You know, we're supposed to be providing that community for people in which they start to act before they they might even desire, and then those desires grow.

Doug Smith: 32:09

Oh, that's so well said.

Derek Kreider: 32:12

So one of the other things that, I really enjoyed about your book is that you you touch on Neil Postman, and he's I don't remember how I came across Neil Postman, but he's not somebody that I see cited all that much. And maybe it's just the circles I run-in and and who I read, but I don't see him come up that much. But when I I read, one of his books, I was like, this is amazing. And I read a couple more, and and they're all just pretty profound. But I I think one of the reasons that he maybe gets overlooked is because he's he's sort of, I would say maybe more in the vein of Aldous Huxley, you know.

Derek Kreider: 32:49

And and, so anyway, postman and the Huxley, I think, paint a a different danger than I think most of our society is looking out for. So I think we we are often fearful of, like, Orwell's 1984 world. We think of maybe North Korea or, the former Soviet Union, communism. In in the United States, that's kind of the, the enemy that everybody's looking out for. This this just Orwellian world, of, you know, big government and and all that stuff.

Derek Kreider: 33:27

But the Huxley world, you know, when I when I read Huxley, I think last year, I was like, that world doesn't sound all that bad. I mean, you have a really nice life, and, you get lots of entertainment, and, you know, pleasure is kind of there for everybody. It I don't think it seems that bad to most people in our world, in our society right now. So could you maybe explain there's a lot there, but, talk a little bit about Neil Postman and and maybe Huxley, and describe that world that is the one that we're probably living in and why that's maybe just as threatening and dystopian as an Orwellian world.

Doug Smith: 34:07

Yeah. Thank you for asking that. Because you're you're exactly right. Because even in today's propaganda, we're inclined to view other as the other kind of governments, especially as primarily authoritarian big brother types. So because we hear this one of the arguments that that's invoked today is, you know, we should be really nervous about TikTok because we're sending all of our data to China.

Doug Smith: 34:32

And so and that's and China is, of course, all about this authoritarian control, and that's what, you know, that's that's the messaging that we get, and we should that's very 1984. Yeah. That's the but but here, as Postman cited Huxley, we are really amusing ourselves to death. That's Postman's great work. Right?

Doug Smith: 34:51

And it's so prophetic because we're led into pleasures that are literally stealing our lives. Our god given purpose, what we even think about, what we want, what we think we're here for. I I talk to, when I talk to, parent groups and, homeschool groups I talk to a lot, I talk about them what what they need to prepare their kids for. And are you preparing your kid for a world where basically we live in a theme park? And so your idea is to have as much fun as possible and just to be happy and la la la, or are we living in a world that's essentially a battlefield for their hearts and minds?

Doug Smith: 35:24

And I make, of course, the argument that we're in a battlefield for your hearts and minds, especially if you if you take the Bible seriously. Right? And so what we're led by our culture and we have been for a while, but never more. I mean, if Postman saw TikTok, he and and how it's exploded, he would he would think that was the thing because he was he was his polemic was against television and what television had done to religion and news and education and all these things that we value. Postman taught that television at the time in the eighties was basically ruining all those things because it teaches us to think that everything should be entertainment.

Doug Smith: 36:04

And if it's not entertaining, like politics or religion or education or whatever, if it's not entertaining, then it's not even reality. Our reality is literally shaped by our constant exposure to screens. And, and so, he, he really goes after commercials, which he brought about, you know, which you, which you brought up earlier, which, where he talks he calls them a psychodrama, Postman does. And this notion of, again, commercials aren't about teaching us something in order to make a rational decision. They're teaching us to see ourselves as the kind of people who can't live without this or that.

Doug Smith: 36:43

We identify with the people in the story. I love his line, I probably messed it up, but it's something along the lines of, a commercial is like education in the sense that the book of Jonah is about the anatomy of whales, which it's not at all. Right? It's it's about ourselves. It's about who we are and and what we should be doing.

Doug Smith: 37:05

And so but but our culture really reminds me of the old Pinocchio movie back when Disney had better morals, I think, maybe. This this idea of Pinocchio wanna be a real boy, but then he gets deceived and they take him to Pleasure Island where all these young people indulge their baser desires and turn them into donkeys to work in the salt mines. I really think that's what's happening to us and we see just this crisis in our culture. You know, you think about well, what's so bad about just feeling good all the time? Well, it's not really when you pull back the camera it's not working well for us even just on a human level, even if you take off the spiritual level, mental health crisis, especially among the youth, you know, anxiety, depression, suicidality is off the charts and you can track that right with the with the trends up of big tech adoption, you can trend these negative effects.

Doug Smith: 37:55

The, just we're really in a cultural crisis from even that standpoint. So, but then if you bring it back to the spiritual, what's the problem with that? Well, we're, we're basically being taught to love the world, the lust of the flesh, the eyes of the pride of life. Those are the things that we live in all day long or to be worried about that we're not in that. And so we really are being led into an anti Christ kingdom through this, through, through feeling good.

Doug Smith: 38:24

And again, as we, as we mentioned a little bit earlier, our epistemology really is about, does this feel good to me? Does this feel right? It's not about, is this true? It does this align with reality? Does this align with what God has taught us?

Doug Smith: 38:38

Those questions aren't even asked. It's just, does this feel right? And if so, we can be led anywhere. We can be led anywhere they wanna take us. And unfortunately, it's taking taking a lot of especially young men into video game addiction and never really finding their true purpose.

Doug Smith: 38:53

It's taking a lot of, you know, stereotypically, I mean, women play video games too, but stereotypically the men and stereotypically women who typically get addicted to still social media and their online brand and they learn what they're there for. They're there to present themselves to win on social media. Is that really what we want them to become? And where does that lead them? It typically leads them to a really unhappy place.

Derek Kreider: 39:18

Quick side question. Are you familiar with, the work of Jonathan Haidt?

Doug Smith: 39:23

I am. I mean, I know his name and I am I am familiar with his work.

Derek Kreider: 39:27

Okay. Yeah. I know that he, I just, read one of his works and he, right now, is is doing some big books on, on the studies that are are now coming out of what's happened over the last decade in relation to social media. So,

Doug Smith: 39:43

anyway Yeah. He just wrote a big article on that, didn't he? Just wrote a big article about how that that was, like, the dumbest decade or something like that. I can't remember the exact title, but, yeah, those are really important work. Yeah.

Derek Kreider: 39:52

Yeah. I thought you might be interested just in case you haven't heard of them.

Doug Smith: 39:55

Yes. Thank you.

Derek Kreider: 39:58

So anyway, one of the things that you were you were saying, to to kind of play the devil's advocate here, you know, talking about how, people in video games or or whatever else are kind of in this this fictitious world. And and I remember from your book, you were talking about this. Yeah. You're sitting, I think, at a coffee shop, and there's this boy who was looking out of a window at nature in awe. And you thought that it was just so beautiful to see him valuing the real world.

Derek Kreider: 40:28

You know, I I know a lot of people who would ask in our society, well, a virtual world is a real world, if that's where I find my value. Okay. The the people, you know, the the characters I'm playing in that world aren't real. But the joy, the satisfaction, the community with with, online players, you know, as I'm connected, like, that is real because it it gives me real experiences and, real community, real joy, whatever it is, real pleasure. So how do you how do you distinguish then between, you know, what's real versus, what synthetic value or, maybe what is objective value?

Derek Kreider: 41:10

And this this idea that, of self created purpose, which it seems like you would say, there's there's no such thing as self created purpose.

Doug Smith: 41:19

I would say that. Absolutely. Yeah. That's such an important question because a lot of people do justify their 8, 10, 12 hours a day in these virtual environments by that very thing. I feel fulfilled doing this.

Doug Smith: 41:32

This is what I want to do. So my my questions become, well, why does that fulfill you? What discipled you into thinking that or propagandized you, I would, you know, into thinking that virtual worlds are fulfilling? It's not whoever inspired the heavens declare the glory of God. No, it was the reason you feel that way is that those who profit by the deception that that is real, that those virtual worlds are real, are really good at what they do.

Doug Smith: 42:03

They've manipulated you into thinking that that is true. And so, it may feel as true as, you know, but again when you pull the camera back and you look at your life you are literally doing nothing other than being addicted to an experience that is taking you away from your God given purpose. So what I would say again as a Christian, is that when read with an open heart for truth, the Bible tells us that God communicated in Christ by sending him to die for our sins and to rise from the dead. And that is an eternal truth to to fall back on. That is this that is the truth.

Doug Smith: 42:50

So some people say either God is God or we are God. And so the virtual world side is really falls on the we are God side. Like we decide we're God for ourselves, we'll decide our own purpose. But if we decide that we aren't a good God of our own lives and we're looking for the one true God, then we live in his real world. And so when we don't get that real world connection, it literally is killing us.

Doug Smith: 43:14

Again, it's young people are very, are especially vulnerable to that because as we're growing up, our brain actually is changed by the things that we do. So as we are discipled or taught or whatever, especially as young people. So that's why it's so tragic. You know, when, when kids, young kids get these devices or video games, their brains are literally changed to think that that's all that life is about. And then the things, the part of the brain that was like, could have done other things starts getting trimmed away.

Doug Smith: 43:48

And we, and we neuro pathways are created and really made really strong in that direction. So, that, but that isn't good for us and it's causing real harm. So, but even back to your point about, self created purpose, you know, we the Bible talks about our life being like a vapor. We're like a flower that fades. How kind of, I I don't know, prideful or or, you know, how much hubris we have to have to think that we can appear on earth in this tiny little window of life and think that we know what the purpose of life is.

Doug Smith: 44:21

We do seek it out, but if ultimately it's about our own pleasure, it's such an empty thing and then you can't explain why would someone sacrifice themselves for another person? Why would someone go to all the kind of trouble even to be a missionary in Romania, right? Why would you do that Unless there was some grander purpose that you and find amazing fulfillment. Why would someone be willing to say: I'm a believer, I'm a true believer, even in the face of tremendous persecution. Why would they do that?

Doug Smith: 44:54

It doesn't feel good. But it's because they're in a real context that they know the real world, what the real world is for, and is about. And so, so yeah, when I was, when I was finishing up my book in that particular day in the library, and I saw that child just open his mouth so wide and look out in this beautiful landscape. It it brought a tear to my eye because it was so beautiful and so rare. Like, because most kids would bend heads down in a tablet and missed it completely and missed that the heavens declare the glory of God.

Doug Smith: 45:25

But if you're not looking, you won't you won't experience that and know the real truth outside of yourself.

Derek Kreider: 45:32

So this might be, an on the spot question. No pressure. If you, can't come up with anything at the moment. But a lot of what you were talking about here, really strikes me as, you know, you talk about God a lot. And obviously, I'm on the same page there because, we're both Christians.

Derek Kreider: 45:52

But do you think that you could make a a case or an argument for somebody who doesn't believe in God that, they should value the the real world as opposed to a virtual world?

Doug Smith: 46:09

Oh, absolutely. I certainly can. I think the argument that at least the thing that I'd be prepared to share about would be the the the human flourishing angle, the the idea of, okay. So say you're an atheist, you're a materialist. Well, you're going to want to at least care about what's healthy.

Doug Smith: 46:28

Right? What's what is most likely to produce, ongoing propagation of the species. Right? So, what we're doing is not, is, we are destroying the next generation. And the data, if you just look at the data beyond the propaganda, and look at how our kids are not doing well, they're suffering, they're not becoming the next generation that can withstand anything, they need, at the slightest provocation, they're triggered into anxiety.

Doug Smith: 47:03

Kids kids who go into a store without their phone and they and they need to possibly if they were to ask, you know, they can't find whatever they're there to look for. They can't find the soda pop. Well, instead of asking somebody, they can't have a calm face to face conversation. So they run out in anxiety and end up not buying anything. This is not and, again, from a purely if you just look at a materialistic or even a a world organization standpoint, do you really wanna organize your world where the most powerful corporations in the world are exploiting billions of people around the world for their profit to their expense and objectively look at what's happening to these people and how they're being where are we in 20 years if we continue at this rate?

Doug Smith: 47:45

We're not here, it would be my contention to someone, you might want to find God sooner than later because we're blowing ourselves up here guys. So there's not a lot of hope if we continue down this road. We're down we're at the road of, did you see the Pixar movie WALL E?

Derek Kreider: 48:04

Yeah, I did.

Doug Smith: 48:04

I mean, that that is a prophetic movie, I think, in terms of the, you know, if 700 years in the future, I think it would take that long. But basically, you know, they've we've destroyed the planet. We've optimized ourself to where we just do everything on a screen. And, we are those people floating around on those chairs that because we can't walk and we don't even know that we should. They live in a virtual world, in a spaceship above the earth because we've destroyed the earth because we haven't even stopped we stopped looking at the earth because we're on our screens all the time.

Doug Smith: 48:32

So I would say all those kind of arguments really would form for me as an atheist. I'd be like, you know what? This isn't working. The real world is really much better and this virtual world we're creating is, is not working. And I don't think the answer for many people would be, oh, well, we just built the wrong virtual world.

Doug Smith: 48:54

I think it's in the nature of building virtual worlds, especially those that are controlled by exploiting people, exploiting their behavioral psychology and causing them to be addicted to your products so that you get everybody in this virtual world.

Derek Kreider: 49:07

Yeah. Good answer. And that that probably goes back to before we started recording, you know, you talk or or no. I guess it was after we started recording talk about, you were reading Sam Harris and, some of the other new atheists. So that would, you know, they get a lot into human flourishing.

Derek Kreider: 49:23

So great. That just a perfect example in episode of how, how reading broadly, even with people you disagree with, can help you to understand their arguments and where they're coming from. So one of the things that that kind of, you know, sparked was when when you talk about atheists, it's it's kind of ironic. It seems to be that, you know, you they they wouldn't want to be a tool of God. I think sometimes, some of the atheists that, that I've talked to, feel that maybe God objectifies people.

Derek Kreider: 49:59

You know, people are just kind of pawns in in whatever his cosmic game is. Yet, after after researching and talking with you a bit about propaganda, and we've already talked about the way that our desires can be shaped and formed and how easily that can happen, it seems like we can just end up being pawns of corporations or, you know, whoever the governments, whoever the propagandizers are. So people today often view their desires, as their identity. You know, this is especially true in the sexual realm, you know, with, you know, however I identify, that's that's very important. That's a that's a core part of who I am, my desires.

Derek Kreider: 50:44

Could you talk a little bit about, and we've already talked a little bit, but maybe just a little bit more about some of the problems of basing our identity in our desires rather than evaluating our desires and then holding those desires accountable to reality and objective purpose?

Doug Smith: 51:02

Yeah. I really do think that's an important question because that is, again, another one of the very, very strong cultural messages that we hear all over and that we're exporting all around the world is this idea that however you feel forms your identity. And I think it's 2 things that are there. One thing is that, our desires are much easier to shape than other things about us. And so if you're going to control people, again, as we've talked about, you're going to want to shape their desires.

Doug Smith: 51:34

But the other thing is, we all care about our identity. We're all here seeking who are we as, you know, these are fundamental questions that people have asked forever. Who am I and why am I here? And so if we can provide a quick answer, an easy answer, which is, hey. Check on check on, Tumblr or Reddit or Instagram and find out what you feel and find out your identity from here.

Doug Smith: 51:59

Or or, you know, go go deep inside yourself and find out what you are. And there's no tie to this objective reality, to the fact that we are in a real world. We are flesh and blood. We are we are here. And, there is a context in which we live that there is to be that's there to be discovered.

Doug Smith: 52:16

So, it's a very, very shaky foundation when you be when you base your identity on your desires because when you really think about it, our desires really are the most changeable thing about like, our our our mental makeup. You know, from everything from what do you feel like for dinner tonight, sweetie? You know, that desire is gonna change from day to day. Did you like broccoli or hot sauce as a child or and that you talked about the professor who didn't like coffee. You know, he was kind of led into it.

Doug Smith: 52:46

So so we are we our desires are shaped and but but as if if what Christians actually have known that are that are true and actually many many cultures have known that are true is that when you disciple your people into this way into a way of living they will come to want the good things that you teach them to do I think about, you know, taking piano lessons or learning a sport you may not feel like doing your scales, you may not feel like doing your push ups or whatever, you know, but but once you come to the place where you, where you can do the thing that the person who's teaching you knows that you'll be able to do if you if you persist in this thing, you'll overcome those desires and become something you could never imagine. And, and and so that is super powerful. So again, in my worldview, in a God based worldview, the biblically based worldview, there is a real spiritual battle for our hearts and minds, and our identity is at the core of it. And so that's why our our enemy who is wanting to fight against our, our discovery of this ultimate identity and our purpose in God, he knows how important this is.

Doug Smith: 54:04

So that's why all the forces are against us knowing our identity and living out that purpose. So, so, yeah, it's a very sandy foundation, I would say, and I definitely would encourage people to really push back on the notion that your desires determine your identity. It really should be the other way around.

Derek Kreider: 54:22

Alright. So that, that first part there was, was a whole lot of of foundation, but I I know that in our conversation, a lot of what we both want to kind of get at is the positive aspect. Okay. What do we do with all of this information? How do we, as a church, help to form people into the the true identity, the good identity?

Derek Kreider: 54:47

So let's, let's kind of shift a little bit and move into that. So, a big part of the motivation behind propaganda, I think, that we see a lot of times is is money. And, especially in Silicon Valley, you know, power as well. And you said, in your book, there's, no higher god than growth there. So it seems to me that the the church, a lot of times, unfortunately, has a similar philosophy of growth, because while the great commission is to make disciples, I've found that, a lot of my experience is that we're seeking to kind of to make converts.

Derek Kreider: 55:27

And a lot of times in our churches, what that means is just converts from, that church down the road that's that's in competition with us. People church hop as opposed to to getting new believers in. And so we we want people to change their minds, to change teams, to change, you know, the the t shirts they wear, but we don't really get at their affections, which I would argue is probably more of the discipling aspect. The, the true radical way of Jesus, I think, doesn't lend itself too well to enticing people in. Right?

Derek Kreider: 55:58

It doesn't have the the comfort and the ease. Jesus' whole lay down your life, sell all your things and follow me, love your enemies. Those slogans, they don't make at all good vision statements for church posters. They're not, you know, one of those one of those nice, feel good posters that you're gonna get. So I'd love for you to talk about the importance of discipleship, and and not just changing people's, minds, but changing people's affections.

Derek Kreider: 56:27

How how does that look different than simply affirming one's intellectual ascent to some belief system and making converts?

Doug Smith: 56:35

That is the question. So good. So well said. I, I think it answers itself almost by the way you said it so well. But, yeah, let me let me affirm what you've said there.

Doug Smith: 56:47

First of all, we really have in the west adopted a, I think, a sales driven model of evangelism. We're here to make a sale at the end of the day. Right? Check this box, pray this prayer. You're in.

Doug Smith: 57:00

You're good. All right. Next. Somehow Jesus didn't do it that way. And it wasn't just because he didn't have a television program.

Doug Smith: 57:10

It was because he knew. The Bible says that he came at the fullness of time. He didn't have to wait for CNN. He didn't have to wait for TikTok. He came at the fullness of time to do what?

Doug Smith: 57:21

To live for 3 years with 12 guys and to tell most of the people he healed not to talk about it. And, very, very anti what we would do. But those 12 people and the people that were closest to him learned to embody who he was. They learned to trust him because they saw him, they lived with him for 3 years, and then he died, and then he rose from the dead, and then they were willing to give their lives because they were already discipled into that. That is discipleship.

Doug Smith: 57:53

And we're not as a rule, as a cultural, as Christians doing that because it's hard and complicated and it doesn't fit into our cookie cutter box. It's messy. You know? Peter will argue with you. You know?

Doug Smith: 58:09

He'll jump out of the boat and fall in the water. You know? John and James are gonna be sons of thunder, and they're gonna argue, and they're gonna wanna call down fire from heaven. You know? Wait.

Doug Smith: 58:18

Wait. Wait. Wait. Guys. No.

Doug Smith: 58:19

So, we we do need to really understand that discipleship is so much more about in the Bible when you go through it at the Bible and you look at the book of acts, it's about about these real communities that live life together about these real relationships that go really deep into authentic connections and authentic connections around prayer and the Bible and service and the things you're talking about and, you know, laying down your life in surrender really only can be done if you understand that in this context of the community that of the church that Jesus has created you can't you don't just do that on your own because it feels good you do that because you understand this is true and then you're reinforced in that by your community so it's, again the culture gets this big technology companies get that get it's hard to call it discipleship because I wanna say I think like you like you have have shared with me off offline too is that, you know, the notion of discipleship, we wanna think about it in a positive way, and I agree. But discipleship apprenticeship, as some would say, you know, we're apprentice in all kinds of things.

Doug Smith: 59:32

And so we're all taught now today that life is about having fun and pleasure. It's all about and it's about and and a lot of that is about having a lot of money and having a lot of power. And look at those guys. Lou, Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of dropped out of college, and now, you know, he started Facebook and he's a crazy billionaire and I could do that too or I could be a YouTube star, or whatever. You know, these are the kinds of things that are forming because we're being discipled into thinking that's what life's about.

Doug Smith: 59:56

And the church says then goes, oh, well, everybody's on TikTok. I should probably go on TikTok too. Or everybody's on Instagram. I should probably you know, that's where all the kids are. Let's run our youth group on Instagram.

Doug Smith: 01:00:06

And without a context of, okay, what are we here for? And recognizing how much more powerful 9, 10, 11 hours a day in on on a screen is than 30 minutes a day in church and maybe an hour a day in youth group or hour I'm sorry, 30 minutes a week and an hour a week. Right? Like, those aren't those are not we're not discipling them. And so we're losing them.

Doug Smith: 01:00:29

Right? When you look at the numbers, the churches are emptying by the droves because our message isn't as nearly as compelling. So discipleship, ultimately, what we need to really be thinking about and what I talk about again in my book in the idea of surrender it's about Jesus is the King and, if he's the King then we are his servants and we need to not only we need to call people to that's the life And why would they do that? Well, they would do that because they are, they, as you said earlier, they're drawn in by our love for each other, us fellow servants forgiven and redeemed by King Jesus where we are, an alternative community. We're not anxious about everything everybody else is because we're not discipled by that.

Doug Smith: 01:01:15

We're not worrying about the next, why the certain tweet blew up on, you know, and became viral. We don't care because we're an alternative community, and, we're experiencing eternal life right now because we're living we're discipling one another into this way. This, one of my favorite verses as I as I say that is, Jeremiah 616, which talks about, thus says the Lord, stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths where the good way singular is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. And Jesus quoted that, you will find rest for your souls, by when he said, come unto me all you you who are heavy or are, weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Right?

Doug Smith: 01:02:03

So but then Jeremiah 6 16 continues and said, but you would not. And I'm afraid that we as a culture and unfortunately as a church as well, we won't we won't do it because, well probably like you said earlier we don't have these paints in our palette so we haven't really seen it done very well but when it is done well it's it's life changing and I believe it's the only way we can actually thrive in our screen saturated propagandist, right, saturated world.

Derek Kreider: 01:02:36

And what you said there reminds me of, I think it was a quote or idea you had from Postman in your book where he talks about, commercials are are modern day parables and their their visions of the good life. You know, the if people are being saturated with 9 or 10 hours a day of of parables from culture, and what they're getting at church is just more parables but tackier because they're not they're not done as well, you know, because they're done by people my age as opposed to, you know, 20 somethings. Then yeah. I mean, what, what, what good life does the church have to offer them? And so there's the church, it seems, has moved away from being an alternative kingdom, to being one that's a parallel kingdom.

Derek Kreider: 01:03:29

Maybe not even a kingdom, maybe a subordinate to, to the real kingdom that has power, the political, national kingdom. So maybe you could talk a little bit about, because in your in your book, you you mentioned, the fray I don't know if it's a phrase or you talk about the idea of Jesus being king now. That's something that's relatively new to me, like, past 5 years ish. Because, growing up in the in the denomination that I did and and in the area that I did, I think there was a there was a whole lot of, you know, future orientation, a lot about, you know, going to heaven, getting there. That's when things are gonna be made made right.

Derek Kreider: 01:04:14

We're kind of on a sinking ship. And this idea that Jesus is king, I'd be like, well, yeah. I mean, he's he's always been king in theory, but not really. It maybe you could talk a little bit about Jesus being king now. Is that true?

Derek Kreider: 01:04:31

And if it is, how does that completely overhaul, like, the way that we should do church and and the implications for church as, the realpolitik in the world as, Stanley Hauerwas says.

Doug Smith: 01:04:44

Yeah. So important. We sometimes we have to come I I think I had to come to the end of myself to really understand this truth, because when all of our defaults is to best basically be the king of our own lives and to call the shots. And even as churches, you know, we wanna be kind of in charge. We give lip service to Yeah, Jesus is king of kings and Lord of lords.

Doug Smith: 01:05:09

We'd love to sing that and that kind of thing. But we forget the actual present. What is the As we sit here today, what does the Bible say is actually true about where Jesus is? He's Well, he died, he was buried, he was raised on the 3rd day, according to the scriptures, and then he ascended. And right now he's on the right hand of the throne of God right now as king.

Doug Smith: 01:05:31

And so that is the present reality as a Christian that I have to live under. And, it hearkens back to another verse that I love on that, derives this point in a little different way, but he says the earth is the Lord's and all it contains the world and those who dwell in it. That's Psalm 24:1. So everything belongs to him if he's King we are not and we don't really own anything on, 1st Corinthians talks about our bodies are not our own you've been bought with a price I is not long no longer I who live but Christ live in me you know we talk about we say these things out loud but we don't we still kind of live as if the worldly kingdom and its promises about, hey, do whatever you want and feels good as long as, you know, you check this box and you're good for heaven. Otherwise, we live pretty much the same as anybody else.

Doug Smith: 01:06:21

And why is that? Because we aren't really embodying and living out this this real present reality. But if I do, I no longer think of this is my rights, my possessions, even my spouse or my kids or all those are gods. So what do I do? It changes everything with our perspective of if this is god's, then I'm like the person I'm like the, the parable of the talents where I've been given management or maybe stewardship of some little some part of the thing for a some very short period of unknown amount of time.

Doug Smith: 01:06:55

And I, as a servant, and if I wanna hear well done good and faithful, it's not well done good and faithful, social media influencer, well done good and faithful, you know, mega church pastor. You know, nothing against those people, but we are called to be well done good and faithful servants of a king. And that's the whole mental model that we're really supposed to be working under. When I got that, it was so life changing. It just changes.

Doug Smith: 01:07:19

It's a present constant reality that really does inform my interactions with almost every everything, you know, I get much less worked up about whether I'm getting my way over this or that. It's like, God's God God is in charge. This is God's world. So so so to me that really should that perspective as of our position under the king should then inform this as such great, great news because the fact it's not only just that God is Lord and everything is the Lord's and Jesus is the King. What do we know about these?

Doug Smith: 01:07:59

What do we know about God and Jesus the King? We know that they exemplify the highest self sacrificial love. They're not tyrants. They are do everything they do is for our good. So then we are motivated into joyful servant, joyful service of our king, not grudging servants to a tyrant.

Doug Smith: 01:08:18

So, yeah. So I, again, I just really come down to, and I was influenced a lot in terms of how to articulate this well by, Matthew Bates wrote this book called, Salvation by Allegiance Alone. And he goes really deep into this notion of, you know, we talk about being saved by faith and which we are, but what is faith? What does that really mean? And we, as we mentioned earlier in Western churches especially, have kind of brought that down to an abstract, an ascension of an acceptance of an abstract idea.

Doug Smith: 01:08:49

I check a box. Yeah, yeah, Jesus is Lord. Okay, good. But what does that really mean? I live that out.

Doug Smith: 01:08:55

When I live that out, the word really translates better to things like trust or faithful or allegiance. And in the context of Jesus as King, it really, changes everything about not only how we live, but how our churches then work to disciple others. And it turns everything on its head.

Derek Kreider: 01:09:16

Yeah. I've I've actually been reading quite a few books over the last year or 2 about, you know, allegiance and and, king language, in in the gospels. And it really is amazing how much they have that, you know, with the triumphal entry and all that stuff, how many phrases and depictions there are that are meant to mimic, you know, Caesar when when he was coming in and in his entry or or whatnot. And, and just the, you know, the language that they're using, like, the Christ. So, yeah, there's, there's so much, kingship language that, that they're trying to convey to us.

Derek Kreider: 01:09:56

And that's good. So one of, you know, your your focus, I think, has been a lot on maybe corporate propaganda. But I'd they're definitely some of the biggest propagandizers, and they're they're very ubiquitous. But I think maybe some of the most potent propagandizers too have been nations. And so one of one of my biggest struggles that I've had in this propaganda season, even from the very beginning, because I was thinking, you know, propaganda is terrible.

Derek Kreider: 01:10:30

But the, you know, the phrase or the term actually arises out of, the Catholic church in like the 16th or 17th century, because they propagandize, which just means to teach. And and all of it today, it has become, you know, there are connotations of deception or manipulation and that kind of stuff. So I'm thinking, okay, well, if the government does it or if corporations do it and they're trying to teach a certain thing that they may or may not believe, to a certain extent, I call that propaganda. But when I teach my kids about King Jesus, you know, and that nation, when I'm propagandizing for his nation, I call it discipleship. Is there a way to differentiate, discipleship that we're doing from propagandizing?

Derek Kreider: 01:11:24

And, is that disingenuous to just shift the terminology? Or is it is it legitimately distinct?

Doug Smith: 01:11:33

Yeah. That's important. It's really, really important conversation to have. The definition of words changes over time, right? So like you say, the idea of propagating something is just a matter of sending a message.

Doug Smith: 01:11:45

I didn't really take on as much of an ominous sense, I don't think until the early 20th century. And we started seeing nations using propaganda as a weapon, not only to, to, to like organize their own people around their ideas and maybe defend them against the other, but then, you know, propaganda, even other nations about what, who we are and what, you know, the it dearly does become a weapon. And then, and now it's, you know, even more. We read about Bernays and Alul and, you know, their teachings on on how propaganda works. It's taken on a whole new name, a whole new character.

Doug Smith: 01:12:19

And so I think really at a heart in the way we use the word propaganda today, it's deception. It's at its heart deceptive. And so I would really delineate between that. And I would, as I show in my book, I really trace back deception to the father of lies in the Bible. John 8:44 says he is the liar and the father of lies, the enemy, the devil is that.

Doug Smith: 01:12:38

And so we can, we can look at that and, and think, well, propaganda is at its heart deceptive and manipulative where discipleship now, I can sometimes go the other way. I've sometimes say, well, discipleship always works. It's just a matter of who your trusted authority is because we're being discipled by our culture to become the kind of people that embody these kind of things that so so you could almost again, what so what's the distinction there? I mean, you could use because I consider discipleship a positive word, but it can also be used negatively. And I think that's because when I look at the practices, when I look at us, doing Deuteronomy 6, but not with Christian content.

Doug Smith: 01:13:18

We're doing it with social media content or video game content, but we're still practicing doing the things and end up loving the things that the culture wants us to love. But again, I would I like the clean separation of terms, and so if we say Christian discipleship, the distinction there is that it's based on what's true. It's it's ultimately based on on reality. Again, what we've been talking a lot about. We trust eyewitness accounts of the resurrection and that that's been faithfully transmitted to us by the Holy Spirit.

Doug Smith: 01:13:45

And so when we teach our kids this reality, we're not deceiving them we're actually helping them we're helping them understand that we live in a world of propaganda so you need to understand the truth and if I don't disciple you in it meaning if I don't talk about it when we sit in our house and walk by the way and lie down and rise up We don't teach them how to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. Right? If we don't teach them how to see the world through this lens by constant, constant discipleship because they're always asking why? Well, what about this? What about this?

Doug Smith: 01:14:14

That's what kids do, and they should. You know? Well, he says my identity is whatever I feel like. So if I feel like I'm this or that, then why isn't that true, dad? Well, remember, son, we've we've talked about how God is actually the one who decides our identity, and he has a way better plan for us than they do, and here's why.

Doug Smith: 01:14:32

That's not propaganda. That's reality. That's the truth. If we were trying to if first of all, we didn't believe it ourselves, we would be we would be propagandizing. We're like, well, because some people do that.

Doug Smith: 01:14:43

Right? Some people say, well, church is good. So I'll drop my kids off at Sunday school because, you know, they'll get some good things there. They don't really believe it themselves. I'm coming at this as a Christian who actually, I really do believe this.

Doug Smith: 01:14:53

And so I really, really want to form my kids and grandkids such that they are true disciples of the true King and that requires us to practice what could look like on the surface as propaganda but again we're not being deceptive, we're being open and real and true, and sharing a message that is authentic, with an authentic heart, with a good conscience and a sincere faith, and leading them to the way, the truth and the life in the best way we can in our broken way, you know? But Jesus didn't use deception to call us to himself, and so we shouldn't either. And I think that to me that really plays out as the distinction.

Derek Kreider: 01:15:38

Right. Last question that I have for you, and then and then maybe there there'll be something else that you wanna chat about quickly. So we'll put this in negative in a positive way. Let's say there's there's somebody who's listening who says, man, I yeah. I'm one of those people who spends 10 hours a day on my phone.

Derek Kreider: 01:16:01

And I wanna stop, but I'd I mean, I can't see how I'm actually gonna stop. Or to go more the positive way, somebody who so that's somebody who wants to stop being propagandized, but somebody who wants to start being discipled. You know, maybe, a wayward Christian, somebody who, grew up in church, but, just kind of lost a love for it, or maybe never had a love for it, had bad experiences with it and says, you know, I would, I would really love to pray. I, I can't get myself up early in the morning. I just don't desire prayer enough to do that.

Derek Kreider: 01:16:37

I I don't want to go to church. Sunday morning's my day off because Saturday, the kids are playing sports and, you know, Sunday is my day to to sleep, to rest. Right? Isn't Sabbath a good thing? So how would how would you maybe counsel, somebody who's trying to break free from propaganda?

Derek Kreider: 01:16:55

What actions should they take? Or somebody who's wanting to grow their love for for that which is true and ideal?

Doug Smith: 01:17:06

Yeah. That's that's again why I really at the ultimate at the end of the day, that's why I wrote this book was to help people just like that. I I envision someone who kind of maybe embodies both of those ideas, just that they've they've been living life, they've been going along, they've been doing the best they can, and they just feel like, man, I thought I'd be farther along or I thought I'd be more just more, you know, than I am right now, and I'm not satisfied with my life. And I what what is and I used to feel like I was close to God, but I don't really feel that way anymore. And, you know, I've just kind of wandered unintentionally into this way.

Doug Smith: 01:17:42

What I would say what I would counsel is I would I I usually start by trying to play on the first on the first idea that nobody likes to be manipulated. Nobody likes being lied to. If you understood really how much effort is being put into propagandizing you and making you think that you should spend 10 hours a day or just default to it. Like the reason that's a thing is that you are incredibly, incredibly the victim of a, of a system designed to keep you captured there. And so I like to raise up a rice a righteous indignation to start with.

Doug Smith: 01:18:18

No. I refuse. I'm not gonna nobody wants to be lied to. Even if even if you don't go all the way and accept Jesus as your lord and king, I mean, you'll be you'll be better at least for that. I want you to go all the way, but at least at least for heaven's sake.

Doug Smith: 01:18:32

Don't let yourself be manipulated. So then I would say to the to the Christian who would maybe who feels like, gosh. I'm same kind of thing. You know? I'm stuck.

Doug Smith: 01:18:41

I I I don't I don't see my way out of this. I would want to I'd want to just encourage them to say that, you didn't get here quickly. You probably won't get out of it too quickly. I've prayed early on especially early on, Lord, take away these sinful desires. I want I want this lightning bolt.

Doug Smith: 01:18:59

And God doesn't typically do lightning bolts. He does do some. I know many miraculous things that God has done, but, stories of people who are delivered from things just instantaneously. But a lot of times, it's what we've called discipleship. It's the slow daily walk and that you look back over 10 years and go, wow, I've been walking, I've been doing this and I'm different, I'm changed.

Doug Smith: 01:19:23

And so to the person who, you know, I can't pray, I don't wanna really feel like going to church, I would encourage you to just, first of all, understand those desires that you feel today probably or maybe aren't necessarily desires that were planted there for your good. And even if those are your desires, they can change. And God has a great way of doing that. I would encourage a Christian also to understand that there is this battle. If you read the Bible, and it's an uncomfortable subject to a lot of people, but Jesus went into the wilderness for 40 days and was tempted by the devil.

Doug Smith: 01:19:59

Jesus believed in the devil. Right? Again, we don't like to talk about that. It's uncomfortable, but but the fact is if there is a devil, he's been tempting us since the garden. He's been telling us lies since the garden, and he's be telling if if your time wasn't so valuable, he wouldn't be wasting all of this effort to try to get you to use your time differently.

Doug Smith: 01:20:20

And so I would encourage you in that standpoint mode maybe motivated by, you know what? I want to I don't want to fall for that. I want to know the truth and walk in it. And so and God is waiting there with open arms. And so just just start just start.

Doug Smith: 01:20:34

Don't don't try to do it all at once. I wouldn't say and that's why I call these biblical practices in my book. They're they're daily practices. It's a constant daily every day I have to surrender something new. Every day I have to remove something else.

Doug Smith: 01:20:45

Every day I have to renew my mind to something or or look at my habits or pursue my purpose in a better way. You know, those are the 5 things I teach people, as biblical practices. But it's a one it's a day at a time, battle at a time, gracious, loving relationship that we have with God, that when we show up every day and say, Lord, I am yours. What would you like me to do today? How can I live for you as you are the Lord and I am your servant?

Doug Smith: 01:21:12

Well, the next thing will be the right next right thing. And then, then, and then, and then, and then until finally we may will come and find ourselves. Wow. You know what? I'm actually praying every morning for 15 minutes a day.

Doug Smith: 01:21:24

How did that happen? Just, it happens one step at a time or I'm going to church every Sunday and if I miss a Sunday, wow, I really feel like I've missed something. Why? Well, we've been transformed and that can happen. So I would just encourage everybody to be open to it, recognize there's a battle for your heart and mind, and just be open to being led by him into that better place.

Derek Kreider: 01:21:47

Alright. Thank you. Is there, anything that that you would like to add to this conversation or anything you feel like we we missed or something that you think would be vital to to plug in?

Doug Smith: 01:22:02

Well, I feel like we've really covered a lot of ground, Eric. I sure appreciate your your preparation and thoughtfulness around it. I, I, I if if if anything we've said has not led people to think there's hope in our world, in in in the face of overwhelming propaganda from all corners and and lots of things that are broken, I would just say, you I I'm sorry if I miss if we because it is really easy to go negative, but in my book I'd spend most of the time being positive and encouraging. And so I really wanna leave everybody thinking there's a way and there's a better way and it's there and it works and it's really wonderful when you're living and the intentional life that God made you to live. You'll never feel talking back to our desires, your new desires will be so positive, when they line up with the reality that God wants you to walk in and and you'll just be so joyful and grateful because of all of that.

Doug Smith: 01:22:56

And so I just wanna I'd wanna leave everybody with a hope and that I would encourage them to to just be that be more intentional with their lives than, than anything else.

Derek Kreider: 01:23:08

Alright. Well, thank you again for for, joining me. I appreciate it.

Doug Smith: 01:23:14

Thanks for having me, Derek. It's been an it's been a pleasure.

Derek Kreider: 01:23:18

That's all for now. So peace, and because I'm a pacifist, when I say it, I mean it. This podcast is a part of the Kingdom Outpost network. Please check out the links below to find other great podcasts and content related to nonviolence and Kingdom Living.