Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. Today, we are going to interrupt our series that we're doing at the moment on consequentialism to do a special episode. Now I wasn't really planning on doing these types of episodes, but since I think it's gonna fit so well into what we're talking about here with consequentialism, and since it's a current event that I think is extremely pertinent for this episode, for this series, I decided to go ahead and and kind of break away from my original plan. So we'll see how this episode goes and and, decide if I'm gonna do any future special episodes later. So I'm sure most Christians at this point are extremely familiar with the New Christianity Today article that came out, from, I believe, one of their chief editors, who who wrote about the president, and said that, essentially, you know, Christians probably shouldn't have put him in the in the White House in the first place.

And, he said something like, you know, the president, because of all of his moral failings and and character issues as far as Christians are concerned, should he needs to get out of the White House, and we should be pushing for that. And now he didn't say necessarily that that, the president should be impeached. He said that, you know, that's up to to the discretion of of people who who can take a look at the evidence and decide for themselves on that. But, certainly, he should be outed from office by Christians, by evangelicals, in the next election as evangelicals choose not to vote for him. So, I mean, in summary, he he's he's not saying that the president should be impeached necessarily, even though he may feel that way based on the evidence.

He's just saying that Christians have compromised morality to vote for him in the first place, and that's a mistake that we need to not make again in the next election. For me, this article was a a blessing. I mean, this is this is one of the first very prominent evangelical sources that came straight out and and called a spade a spade. You know, you have you have others who have kind of, not danced around it so much, who who've been semi clear, but maybe not as as forceful. Like, I think, Tim Keller has been fairly strong about about things, and I think I heard John Piper, talking about, the the possibility of of not voting to compromise your your convictions in terms of having to vote for president Trump.

So you have you have seen some prominent evangelicals, saying some things, but this is really the first one that I've heard that's been kind of forceful and caused an uproar. And it was just I mean, it was a blessing to read something like that, to say, wow. Finally, they're I I know I've talked to other people. Usually, either people in in, our missions organization, or younger people, people more my age, in their twenties thirties. But so so this was a huge blessing to feel like there is a a remnant of, of evangelicals who seem to be holding on to, what I consider to be more objective morality and what seems to me to be integrity.

And I know that that people are gonna take issue with the way that I phrase that, and I think that's unfortunate because, it seems like when we get to politics, we have to use relativistic language. Like, I can't make a judgment, that I can't say I think something's immoral. Because when we get to politics, I mean, that's just kind of opinion. Yet when when these individuals from Christianity today, made a judgment, there was a counter judgment made on them that they were immoral for not not upholding Trump because the alternative was worse. And so, therefore, they're immoral.

So I I find it I find it that politics, there are often judgments against, you know, liberals or people who won't get on board with the Republican agenda, or the Republican candidate. There's there's this moral sledgehammer swung at them, but when there are moral judgments that are are attempted to be asserted in the other direction, we say, well, you know, that I'm I'm voting my conscience, and, you know, we shouldn't be so judgy when it comes to politics. It's this double standard that prevents, a lot of mainstream conservatives from ever having to face conviction. Because as long as you're you're on board with the Republican party and whoever the Republican front runner candidate is, then you must be moral. So needless to say, for for me, it felt like there was finally somebody of prominence standing up and saying what I and I know a lot of other people, that I've talked to have have felt and concluded.

And, finally, somebody's brave enough to kind of push back and say it out loud. But, you know, the moment I read that article, I knew, I just knew, the type of response that was gonna follow. And it didn't take long for me to to see, exactly what I was expecting to see. And the reason part of the reason I knew the type of response that would follow is just the way that that politics is in this country. And I've been in conservative Christianity, for for long enough that I I know how people in that think.

But, you know, the the other reason I knew what was gonna happen is because, John Howard Yoder had kind of prepared me for that. I remember reading the politics of Jesus, and Yoder said something that just absolutely clicked in my mind. And Yoder talked about how the interesting thing that that Christians when he talks about how Christians are to bear their cross and how a cross isn't, you know, well, I have cancer. Well, yeah, that's that's a sad thing, and it's it's a trial for sure, but that's not cross. Yoder says that cross is something purposed.

It's something that results from the way that you live your life. It's it's, pushback from your enemies. And Yoder made this interesting claim that that I've come to see more and more as very true, but he says the thing most Christians fail to recognize is that most of the time, the the people who are your enemies, the people who end up crucifying you are your own people. And, I mean, Jesus is the prime example here. When when Jesus was crucified, he was crucified by his own people.

And why was he crucified by his own people? Well, because they thought that the messiah was going to act in a different way. And when Jesus didn't fulfill their expectations, when he didn't tap into the means that they thought he should use, when he denied the use of physical violence, when he denied the use of the religious institution of the day, when he denied the use of, the masses, the the three temptations we see, by given by Satan. When he denied to use those things, when he denied kingship on the shores when the people tried to make him king, when he denied religious prominence when and and declared that the temple would be destroyed as the people were saying hosanna and ushering him into the temple, and when he denied to call those legions of angels when he went to the cross, he just he threw off all of the means that every every Jew wanted him to use, in order to overthrow Rome, and set up the the new Israel, the the, the free Israel. And, you know, it's it's the same sort of, ideal or or consequentialism of sorts that at least in in one, segment of tradition, it's said that Judas betrayed Jesus, not because he hated Jesus.

And you can you can take a look at, like, John 10 and John 11. Right? In John 10, Jesus is just about to get stoned. And in John 11, the disciples, including Judas, as far as we can tell, go with him and say, you know what? We're probably gonna die when we go with Jesus, but we're gonna go with him because there's gonna be some sort of confrontation.

And, you know, it's not gonna look good for us. And so one of the you see Judas following him through all sorts of dangers and through a lot of hardship. And so it doesn't seem like Judas is really wanting to betray Jesus In one tradition in church history, what what people think the reason people think Judas betrayed Jesus is because he was trying to force the confrontation that Judas thought was inevitable and needed. Jesus was going to attack, and he was going to overthrow, and he was going to establish the kingdom. And Judas was tired of all this talk of the coming kingdom and all that.

He wanted to force Jesus's hand. And when he realized that Jesus wasn't all talk, but he was going to submit and die, Judas realized what he had done and killed himself. You know, Peter is sort of the the sort of the same way. Peter, all the way to the very end, he he was not a coward, and I'll have an episode on this, around Easter time. But Peter, I mean, did the did the bravest things, just thing after thing after thing Peter did was brave.

And including in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter thought, okay. I'm going to fight for my lord right now. And he he drew a sword, and he attacked. He attacked an armed guard that was coming in to to get Jesus when Jesus' disciples only had 2 swords among them. And this was this was a a difficult fight, but Peter trusted that Jesus would, likely, I guess, fight and overcome because Jesus couldn't lose.

He's going to establish his kingdom. And when when he had to put his sword away, I'm sure Peter thought, okay. I don't know what Jesus is up to, but he's got something up his sleeve. And so he followed him to the courts. And when Peter realized that Jesus wasn't gonna pull this one out like he thought he was, he was just so disheartened and and, he betrayed Jesus.

He said that he didn't know him because he was scared, and he realized that Jesus' kingdom wasn't gonna come like Peter thought it was, with power and force. So when when our ideals are are threatened, so often, they're most threatened by somebody who's closest to us. You know, Rome didn't really care all that much about Jesus. Pilate kinda had to make a decision because it was thrust into his presence. But it but the religious leaders, the Pharisees who were fellow Jews, and and the Pharisees of whom, you know, theologically speaking, Jesus seemed to align with them much more than the Sadducees and, the Essenes and some of these other other religious groups.

So the Pharisees, who are most like Jesus theologically, and then the disciples who betrayed Jesus, and, and Judas, one of his close disciples, the the treasurer. You've got all of these people just betraying Jesus and denying him and even handing him of him over to be murdered, and these are the people who are who are most like Jesus, who are closest to him. And when Yoder pointed that out that that so often, the people who seek our crucifixion, the people who are going to give us the most pushback are going to be the people like us. That's why I knew when this Christianity Today article said, look. We're not gonna use the means that you're telling me we have to use.

This is not moral. This is not right. I knew that that was there was gonna be an assassination attempt on on, that Christianity Today guy. Political idolatry runs rampant in in Christian conservatism and in evangelical spheres. It is the as as Yoder calls it, it's so often the lever of power that we seek to pull in order to guide the course of history.

We seek effectiveness rather than faithfulness, what we perceive as sacrifice over obedience. And politics is how we're gonna accomplish things for God in this world even if we have to do it without him. And whenever you you attack idols and there's a lot of reasons that that attacking idols produces fear. But one of the main reasons is because we believe that it's idols that give us power. The reason we idolize things is because we feel like it gives us control.

I think John John 1148 shows this extremely well when, when John says or or John quotes, the Pharisees or the religious leaders who say, you know, if we let him go on like this, the Romans will take away both our temple and our nation. And so one of the reasons that they that they crucified the son of God is because they said, if we do things his way, if we listen to his teachings, if we let him go on like this, then you know what? The government's gonna take away both our our nation and our religion. Right? We need to protect our nation, and we need to protect our religion.

And that's why Jesus was killed. And when I look around and I see the reason that we sacrifice Jesus as evangelicals today, the reason that we sacrifice his faithfulness, the the morals that he calls us to, the reason that we sacrifice subjective morality today is for the very same reason. Right? We're a Christian nation. We need to keep the 10 commandments, in court houses.

We need to get prayer back in schools. We need to make sure that there aren't gay marriages. We need to make sure that I'm not persecuted for worshiping my God or or for not baking cakes for weddings that I think are immoral. We need to make sure that we we protect our religion, and, at the same time, we need to make sure that we we protect our nation. We need to make sure that it stays a Christian nation, at least in appearance.

Those are the very two things that conservative Christians are fighting for. And while I I think it's good to enjoy your nation and to, it's wonderful to have freedom to act, out in our religion, those are not things for which I need to, fight against in order that I might not have to take up my cross. I need to take up my cross, whatever that looks like. And if if, faithfulness is going to cause me to take up my cross, I'm not going to compromise faithfulness and objective morality in order to not take up my cross. But that's what what the platform was the last few years.

It's just been, if you don't elect this person, if you don't compromise certain moral values, then you know what's gonna happen. You're gonna lose your religion. You're gonna lose your nation. Fear. That's what the party ran on.

And I'm not saying that the other party doesn't run on the same thing, but why are we as Christians running on fear? So when you when you recognize these concepts that you're gonna be crucified by your own people and that, idolatry, political idolatry is rampant, and that idolatry exposed and attacked tends to produce fear, you know what kind of responses you're gonna get. And there were some prominent Christians. I read, 2 or 3 prominent Christian responses to the Christianity Today article. And, I mean, if if you compare those to the the article that was written by Christianity Today individual, I mean, the tone of them is just completely different.

The the tone of the, of the responses were angry. They were passive aggressive. They were pigeonholing and name calling saying that, you know, this this person has a far left agenda when the individuals, you know, for for the same family values and against abortion, but just says we can't do it through immoral means. And all of a sudden, you know, the they, instead of having the discussion, they decide to call him names, say, he's far left, he's a liberal, we can't trust him. And and if you've been listening to this podcast for for any time now, one of the biggest things that they did is they created the false dichotomy, which is what so many people always do.

They create this false dichotomy. Like, if this person is against president Trump and using him as a moral sledgehammer, then they must be for this abortion loving, liberal, agenda. You know, it it reminds me. I think back to, I believe it was Hezekiah, when, you know, God had said, do not make an alliance with Egypt. And I can just imagine what evangelical conservatives today, what most of them would be saying to Hezekiah in that day.

And they would be saying, hey. Look. Don't we wanna preserve our nation and our religion? Right now, we've got an a huge enemy power breathing down our necks. The only way we can save our religion and our nation is if we make an alliance with Egypt.

Doesn't God love our nation and our religion? Wouldn't God want to preserve our nation and our religion? Let's make an alliance so we can accomplish God's end through these means that are immoral because it's clear that God doesn't want that. But Hezekiah was better than that, and he said, I'm going to rely on God. And, he chose to abstain.

He abstained by not making an alliance with Egypt, but nor did he just kowtow to the enemy. He waited for God, and God responded in in great power. But, you know, evangelicals we evangelicals who who, say that we have so much faith and prayer and that we have we have so much integrity, we prove that both of those things aren't true through our actions. Because we don't have integrity since we're willing to flirt with with immorality and with using immorality, to accomplish ends. And at the same time, when people responds to that Christianity Today article, their false dichotomy proves that they don't they don't believe in prayer.

Because if somebody is not for an immoral president Trump, then they must be for an immoral, abortion loving left. The response of patient prayer and a refusal to engage in evil, the response of faithfulness through prayer and waiting on God and trusting in him isn't deemed a legitimate response. It doesn't even come into the minds of the people who are responding. And you wonder why that's the case. Why is that the case?

And the reason I think it's the case is because most of us, most of the time, are consequentialists, which is why we took the time out to take a look at this real world example in action as we speak. My wife and I were having a a conversation, I think it was yesterday, and, I just said, and she agreed, I said, I feel absolutely betrayed by my conservative evangelical community. As I've probably said before and will say again, you know, I I grew up in a Christian school, and I remember this poster hanging above, one of our classrooms that said, integrity is doing the right thing even when nobody is watching. And what that meant was the right thing is the right thing no matter what benefit it is to you. You do the right thing no matter what.

If it hurts you, if it helps you, it doesn't matter. That's not what justifies, morality. Doing the right thing is doing the right thing. That's what integrity is. And I was taught that my whole life.

And even 10, 15 years ago when when we started looking to apologetics, relativism was just just decried as this terrible, modern modern movement that is going to undermine morality in our culture. And I've I was always looking for that undermining to be out there. I wasn't looking for it to be within my own community. I didn't expect that, especially from the prominent Christian leaders. But that's what I'm seeing all over the place.

I feel absolutely betrayed by my Christian community. But then again, going back to Yoder and his discussion of of the example of Christ. And I guess we shouldn't be surprised when we're betrayed from within because that tends to be what we see happen. The people who you're closest to tend to be the individuals who end up hurting you the most. I think of, the first time I saw this, and it and it clicked with me, what Yoda was saying, when Russell Moore, in his his beautifully written, speech called Can the Religious Right be Saved?

When I read that, that was the first time that something resonated with me as, like, yes. He he's got it. That's what that's what I'm feeling. But this Christian ethicist, this this ethicist, his job to be the moral conscience of Christians and specifically, I believe, of the Southern Baptists. You've got somebody like Mike Huckabee who stands up and says, why are we paying this guy to go against us?

I mean, he he's supposed to be the moral conscience. It's not about whether somebody, scratches your itching ears or goes against you. That's not the point. The point is that somebody is saying, hey, guys. Let's have caution.

Let's think this through. And you're upset with a man because he's not telling you what you wanna hear. And Russell Moore was the first person that I saw basically crucified by his own people. And he he wasn't quite crucified. He was he was beat up a little bit.

He was scourged. You know, he he's such a humble guy, and I I respect him so much. He kind of backed off a bit, and and tried to be a little bit more political in how how he said things because the unity of the church is important to to more. And I I find that I find it difficult to know how much, you need to speak up and and stay strong and how much you need to kind of be willing to withdraw. But I know that that Moore's heart is is very good, and I appreciated the way that he sought unity.

But, man, to see to see somebody with as much integrity as Moore did that he could get up and say to a whole group of people who almost all disagreed with him to tell them, guys, we need to have caution. That was just inspiring. And, see, the response was was disheartening. I think it's the same thing that you're seeing with, the response to the Christianity Today article. And if you are going to stand up to the machine, to this bulldozer that's plowing forward, that expects you to be a team player and get on board with whatever means are necessary, if if you stand up against that too, then I think that's what you need to expect.

The assassination attempts are not gonna come from out there. They're gonna come come from inside. And I don't mean that at all to be a discouragement. I think it's it's more of a reality check. And and for me, that's been extremely helpful for me as I think about counting the cost of saying the things that I think need to be said and, moving forward.

I think knowing where the danger comes from is is is very helpful to kind of prepare prepare yourself mentally. I wanna say one final thing. I think, this has been one of the only episodes where I've really let myself go a little bit more, where instead of being laid back and and more scripted, it's it's been more off the cuff. And there's there's a danger in that. I remember when I when I recorded my first ever episode, I'd record it, like, 6 or 7 times, and I had my wife listen to them.

And she she said, yeah. You you kinda sound prideful or, you sound, like, harsh and judgmental. I I'd have these different tones, and I I really hope that I I don't come across that way. Because 5 years ago, I would be talking to myself on this. And 5 years from now, my future self could probably blast me for a 100 different things that, God has been gracious to God will be gracious to teach me over the next 5 years.

So I don't want to make this just an assault on Christian conservative evangelicals, of of which I I consider myself one still. I my my hope by doing this more organically is is that you would help to see my heart in this, that you would help to see, the the passions that are in there that you don't really get to see in any of the up other episodes. The frustrations, the pains, the the things that I feel are just, real. By no means, I'm cynical, when it comes to evangelicals. Maybe I am I am probably a little cynical, but I really do have hope because there are a lot of people I talk to, especially younger people, but but even even some of the the older people I talk to who, you know, I've I've prejudged and and thought, you know what?

They're probably just set in their ways. There have been a lot of people who have surprised me, and I've been humbled through the whole process, at at, learning from a variety of individuals. And even even from from those who I think have this blind allegiance to president Trump or, you know, maybe would say that you you have to vote for him. While while that initially might make me judge them, I've met a number of those individuals who live far godlier lives than I do, who help the poor and and who do beautiful, beautiful things, and and have so much to teach me. And so I recognize that this is not the end all, be all issue.

This is a huge blind spot in Christianity, but it it isn't the end all, be all. And so I have a lot of hope for Christianity, for evangelical Christianity. I think, you know, in response to Russell Moore's, can the religious right be saved? Yeah. I think it can.

But we need a lot more people like Russell Moore who are willing to stand up and willing to be crucified by their own people until God begins a revival through those individuals and through the truth so that we can make our community, purified in a community that, once again, is salt and light and a sweet aroma to the world around us and not a a community which is compromised and detestable in our hypocrisy. You know, that that's where I think most evangelical Christians get it wrong. We want to be this we see this incarnational aspect, as, as physical condescension. You know? We need to get involved in politics so that we can be in the mix and getting things done.

Right? Just like Jesus came from heaven to earth to be amongst us. We get that aspect of incarnation right. We think we need to be in there doing things in the real world. But what we're getting wrong right now is this idea that we can throw off our holiness and our faithfulness in order to do it.

You know, if you think about Christ, if if he condescended to live among amongst us, but then he also condescended in our actions to be like us in our immorality, he might have come to live with us. But what hope would we then have? What would he ever elevate us to if he was just like us in our morality? And, that's what God calls us to be, to be perfect like the father in heaven is perfect, to do good works. Right?

We are Christ's workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. There's, John, and I believe it's first John, talks about how, you know, we are to be holy, but when we're not, there's grace for that. But, nevertheless, we are to live holy lives. If we want to incarnate to the world and live among them, that's awesome, but it's only half of the picture. We need to show the world the beauty of what it is we want them to become.

And until they see that, it doesn't matter how involved we are and how incarnated we are in the in, in their presence. We're gonna be detestable. So let's go out there and change that.