(275)S11E8/5: Christianity No Longer Exists w/Taylor Storey
Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. In this interview, I had the privilege of chatting with Taylor's story. In a nearly 3 hour interview, we covered quite a lot of ground, so I want to first of all point you to timestamps in the show notes for easy reference. But I also want to take a few minutes here to lay out what I think are some important concepts to listen out for throughout the episode. First, much of what we discuss is going to center around true prophets and false prophets, which, if you've listened to the season, is a really common theme.
Derek Kreider:We are especially going to ask whether rotten fruit is an independent occurrence or a systemic one. Is there a worm in one apple, or is the whole tree bad? Now that's a question we grapple a lot with throughout the season, and one which you can find prominently in my interview with Jew Johnson as well as the episode on eudaemonism. So go check out those episodes if this theme interests you. Another theme we get into is related to the ideal.
Derek Kreider:Now Taylor and I are going to argue that holding on to an ideal isn't idealistic, but rather it's what drives us to true right action. To throw off the ideal and compromise is what tends to lead to injustices and great evils. While embracing consequentialism might seem to produce better results, better fruit in the short term, it actually creates destruction and rotten fruit in the long run. Finally, we touch on quite a lot of historical events. We get into Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Moody, Reagan, Machen, Nicaragua, and the Contras, and a lot more.
Derek Kreider:Many of these topics are discussed throughout the season in episodes like our one on Haiti or on media conspiracies with Gary Webb. While our focus in this episode was mostly on Christianity and Christendom, because we live in the west, that means that our history is saturated with Christian influence. If you haven't listened to the rest of the season, I highly recommend you at least go back and search for some of the episodes this interview touches on. Okay. Enough of me talking now because you're about to enter a pretty hefty episode and one which I hope you'll enjoy.
Derek Kreider:So here it is, my interview with Taylor's story. I think you were actually the first person that I interviewed, for for the podcast a while back, and it was pretty messy. It didn't go too well, because I had to, like, splice some things and everything. But, hopefully, I'm a lot better at this thing now, and and things would go well. But I, I wanted to ask you here today because you have a lot of expertise, and and, you've delved a lot into existentialism and, evangelicalism.
Derek Kreider:And so I wanna kind of ask you a bunch of questions and and let you talk about that. But before you do, I kinda wanna set the stage a little bit, with with something that I think is is interesting. It's actually I was reading this guy. I don't know if you've heard of him, and I'm gonna say his name wrong because it's French. But Gustave Le Bain.
Taylor Storey:I don't know if you've heard of him. Know him.
Derek Kreider:Okay. He wrote, he wrote a book. His his famous book is called The Crowd, but he also he also wrote one on, like, the psychology of revolution. And it was really interesting because when when he was talking about the reformation, he mentioned something that I think is gonna be pertinent tonight. He talked about how, from his perspective and he's he's a post revolutionary, Catholic guy, I think, or atheist writing in France.
Derek Kreider:But he said, look, the reformation is just, like, part of this crowd psychology. And essentially what they did is, okay, you had a bunch of people who maybe really were convicted, like Luther, about certain ideas. But what you ended up having is it gained a lot of momentum because you had people like princes who co opted, this movement because they were self interested parties. And what the princes got from it was they got power away from the church. They wrested power from the church, and then they were actually able to swoop in to the Catholic churches and take all that wealth that, that the Catholics had.
Derek Kreider:And it was interesting because, you know, I'd read some some other works on Luther and Zwingli, and what was interesting to me was, you know, they ended up persecuting these these Anabaptists, these people from, they were called the radical reformers who were like, hey, look, your reformation isn't good. And like, we need to go further because government is bad. And Luther and Zwingli Zwingli was on board with that. He was basically like an Anabaptist. But when he saw the tides turning and the prince is kind of getting involved, you know, the prince has saved Luther, and Zwingli is like, I better get out of this this radical reformation.
Derek Kreider:And so he ended up actually swinging and killing the very people who who he was once a part of. He was he was a pretty big jerk. You know, he said, I'm gonna give him a third baptism, you know, because because the reformers, they baptized their infants, and you have the radical reformers who who baptized as adults. And then he's like, okay. We're gonna drown them.
Derek Kreider:Like, we'll give them we'll execute them by drowning and give them a third baptism. So anyway, you have people like like Zwingli and and and, others who are basically turning to the state, because it gives them power. It gives them safety. And so I'm part of, part of a reformed denomination. We use the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Derek Kreider:Are you familiar at all with that?
Taylor Storey:Yeah. I actually did the Westminster Catechism way, way back in the day. Okay. Yeah.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. Our church our church is, you know, that's that's a pretty revered document. What was really interesting to me was, when I discovered that well, we actually don't have the original Westminster Confession, but there were some amendments made. And there weren't all that many made, but there were some some pretty big ones. Alright.
Derek Kreider:One of them was on the civil magistrate, in section 23. And the civil magistrate, they used to say, hey, the civil magistrate needs to protect the church, the the peace and purity of the church, and they can call synods and all that kind of stuff. Well, guess what? They changed that. You know when they changed it?
Derek Kreider:Do you have any guess at all?
Taylor Storey:No. No. I looked over the notes, but,
Derek Kreider:What? I just added this. Yeah. Yeah. They they they changed that section in 17/89 in So the United States in in in America.
Derek Kreider:Right? So they they took that out and they said, no, no, no. The the king can't do that. No longer should they persecute people who don't believe. Right?
Derek Kreider:So the original Westminster is like, no. They have this power, and then and is this is this very serious document that you don't change much at all. But then in 1789, right, God moved, and
Taylor Storey:Yeah. Yeah.
Derek Kreider:And and Yeah. They changed it to align with with whatever the government of their day was. Mhmm. And and so there are a number of of these other examples. But I thought, you know, Le Bon pointing out the reformation and and, the changes in the catechism are gonna be a good backdrop for what I wanna talk to you about today because we're gonna start by talking about, Kierkegaard, who is somebody who recognized how, people of his day in the 1800, it's like, you know, halfway from the the reformation to now, how they were kind of in bed with the state and how you have this this dream of Christianity that, that is just continuing to capitulate to the state.
Derek Kreider:So I wanna talk about that, today. Mhmm. Before we do, if you just wanna give yourself an introduction, that would be awesome.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. So I, was homeschooled k through 12, went to Cedarville University. That's how I know you. I did my first two years there and then worked at some, like, Calvary Chapel churches, also a Presbyterian church. Went to seminary for a little bit at Western Seminary and, dropped out, then went to Jerusalem and studied kind of, like, a more historical approach to the Bible.
Taylor Storey:Just did 1 semester, but it really changed my life. And then and then did a bunch of international things. I taught in China for a year and, worked in humanitarian aid and then, fell into installing solar and wanted to go back to school. So I went back to school in Germany, in Potsdam, which is, like, right outside Berlin. I took classes at Humboldt Berlin, and one night, I was having beers, and I walked outside the bar, and I saw a plaque that said, this is where Soren Kierkegaard lived.
Taylor Storey:And I was like, what? Soren Kierkegaard lived here? And I and then I did a bunch of research and found out that he spent about the same amount of time, 3 years studying in Berlin, I think, on 2 different occasions. And yeah. And then I think I had a similar process with Christianity that I was raised in the fundamentalist side of things and was a little bit disillusioned with that, especially as a result of studying historical, Bible stuff.
Taylor Storey:What's called historical criticism in the academic fields, but is what I kind of studied in Jerusalem. And, and I just didn't see it kind of lining up. I didn't see it being good news. And so I thought I was gonna distance myself, but actually Kierkegaard kind of brought me back. A lot of things brought me back when I was in Berlin.
Taylor Storey:But, Kierkegaard's, training Christianity might be might be the single thing that helped me the most. Another friendship with a with a a friend, that we talked a lot about a lot of things. But, yeah. So, yeah, now I'm, I finished the masters. It took me a long time, and I wrote about, I guess, what we're gonna talk about today, which is, I taught titled the thesis, I think, History of Colonizing Christianities, which is kind of this embed with state thing.
Taylor Storey:And then I focused on, the origins and effects of the Dwight Moody, Cyrus McCormick Junior gospel, what I what I called it. Because there's a whole bunch of background that we'll probably get into today, that happened shortly after Kierkegaard kind of named this problem with Christianity as it was in his day versus Christianity as he saw it practiced, biblically as, I think, historically as well.
Derek Kreider:Alright. I will, I'll have to check out that one by by Kierkegaard. I I have to admit, you know, the first one that I read from Kierkegaard didn't didn't make me like him too much. It was the one I don't remember what it's called, Fear and Trembling, I think.
Taylor Storey:Same for me. Same for me.
Derek Kreider:Like, this is just weird. And then I watched some videos on him, and I was like, okay, well, the concept's really cool, but it seems like you have to kind of devote your life to understanding him because he uses all these pseudonyms. And I'm like, okay. I I can just get the, you know, get the gist from these guys. But I did end up committing to read, Tak Upon Christendom because that sounded really cool.
Derek Kreider:So I read that, and I I enjoyed that. But you you recommend, training in Christianity?
Taylor Storey:I think so. Yeah. But but
Taylor Storey:I think Attack Upon Christendom is probably the best well, yeah. It's it's a shorter it takes, like, all his thoughts. I think in the very beginning, he has this thing where he's, like, talks about, like, a dog on a leash. Right? And then he's, like, okay.
Taylor Storey:Now I'm, like, letting the dog out. Like, so he's like, I'm gonna actually blast Christianity for what I think is really going on. But it's kind of a rehash of something he wrote earlier, which is training in Christianity. But I think, yeah, I think I would go with attack if you have to choose 1 and you, like, I would choose attack 1, Christendom. But it was kind of training in Christianity that, like, hammered home the difference for me.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I can
Taylor Storey:talk about that now.
Derek Kreider:I I guess what would be important here is because, you know, I wouldn't have understood the distinction, several years ago, but he he is a Christian. He's not saying attack upon Christianity. He's saying attack upon Christendom. And I think that's that's an important distinction that not everybody might understand. So maybe you could talk a little bit about Kierkegaard and why he's important for for Christianity because he is a Christian, and attacking Christendom, I would say, is a is a very important job of being a true Christian.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. So in attack upon Christendom, that is kind of what he he has this line, and I can't remember. I think it is I think it is attack upon Christendom where he says, oh, Luther, how terrible. Do you know this line? You had 95 theses, but I have only one.
Taylor Storey:My one thesis is that Christianity no longer exists. In the land of Christendom, you know, he was going back in between, Copenhagen and Denmark, mostly Copenhagen, but it was a small it was not a massive city at that time. He also lived at the same time Hans Christian Andersen, which is kind of interesting, but they didn't like each other. They knew each other, but they didn't like each other. Kierkegaard wasn't liked by very many people because he was kinda calling out the the BS of the system, especially the Christian system.
Taylor Storey:And in and he actually says in his journals I can't remember exactly where, but he says in his journals, that his most important work was was training Christianity, which is funny, like, you mentioned fear and fear and Trembling because I read that too. And I think that's almost, like, from a non Christian perspective, they like that book more, but I think Kierkegaard was really dealing with problems of Christianity. That was his real thing. And, I'd say Kierkegaard seems to be read more by non Christians than by Christians, and so they don't, like, understand this Christianity versus Christendom thing or all this stuff that's going on. So then they go to maybe the the text that's easiest to understand from a non Christian perspective potentially, but I read Fear and Trembling and I was like, okay, leap of faith, like, great.
Taylor Storey:You know, like, it didn't do very much for me. But Training Christianity, I think it's the, like, very first chapter. He talks about the invitation of Jesus, come and follow me. And he says, when it's totally different who says come and follow me. So in Denmark in his day, they have these big churches in the middle of every town, with ministers that were paid very well by the state, wearing robes and gold and all this stuff saying, come and follow me, you know, announcing this is Jesus.
Taylor Storey:Come and follow. And he's like, that's easy. That's that's not that's not crazy. That's not shocking. That's very easy to follow this wealthy thing.
Taylor Storey:But he's like but Jesus would he never spoke from glory is the is the term that he used, at least translated in in English. There's a few translations, by the way. What the book is sometimes called Training Christianity. It's sometimes called Practice Christianity. I don't know which is better.
Taylor Storey:I've kind of looked through both. The one I read was called Training Christianity. But he says, so when Jesus says that in the gospel, he is, he's like a homeless ex carpenter, washed up rabbi who says, Come and follow me. And I was thinking about that. Okay, if I saw, like, somebody on the street, who's saying, Come and follow me, you know, come be fishers of men.
Taylor Storey:That's crazy. That is absurd. You know, that's not the kind of person that we'd follow. And so I think that is, like, almost the foundation of Christendom, this wealthy, incredible church, robes, money, everything, versus someone who's saying, no, I came to bring good news to the poor. And, and so there's this distinction of Christianity of Jesus versus the Christendom of his day, and I would say our day and probably, you know, ever since Constantine pretty much or Theodosius to be a little bit more historically correct.
Taylor Storey:But, yeah, so I think I think that's the distinction. And Kierkegaard also then is kind of considered the father of existentialism, which is not, at least in my understanding, it's not as, inaccessible as I originally thought. I think it just means more like you use the tools that you have to make sense of the world, And every individual has kind of their own tools that are available to them. And so Kierkegaard used his own tools that were available to him to kind of uncover this version of this reading of Christianity versus the dominant reading. And he actually says, it's it's weird because and I feel the same way myself, but he says there are a few places where he says, I'm not a Christian, But he's he's referring to that Christendom kind of thing.
Taylor Storey:Because for most people, when they think Christianity, they think of what he calls Christendom. And he's like, I'm not a part of this. But then, you know, what do you call what he's doing? Because he's because it's it's all Christian stuff. He's pulling it all from Jesus.
Taylor Storey:But he's like, I don't wanna identify the the Christendom thing. Even there's one part he said, like, something like
Taylor Storey:I think this was
Taylor Storey:in the, like, weird weird title thing, like philosophical fragments or something to this effect. But he says the difficulty in previous times in being a Christian was that you had to become a Christian. But the difficulty today is that in order to be a Christian, you have to leave Christianity. But he's again talking about that Christendom thing. He's like, in order to be a Christian, you have to leave Christendom, and that is the hard part.
Taylor Storey:So, you know, it's like the word and it doesn't mean, you know, people from for the vast majority of people, Christianity means the thing that they see on the corner. But then for him, it meant something quite different. And, yeah, I love that distinction of Christianity versus Christendom. So that that helped me a lot. And then what's weird is that, he was extremely influential with, especially that existentialist trend, which is probably still the most dominant thing in in at least European philosophy, I think.
Taylor Storey:I don't know if, within, the United States where you have more of an analytic perspective, and I don't think that existentialism is so dominant. But, I think it is in in in Europe, at least the mainland, the continent of Europe, not so much England perhaps, but, Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, etcetera, like that.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. So so my impression, just to kind of, maybe summarize and and pull some things together, you know, my impression of of what Kierkegaard does and and maybe going back to the introduction with the reformers and everything is that when the reform when the reformers sought to reform, they reformed some theological things, and there it seems like a big deal to us as protestants. Like, man, they got rid of, you know, icons, and and and those are big things in in some sense, like in a in a visual sense. Yeah. But the structure was still there because now you basically just have a church that, you know, has its wealth and power just with different groups of people under slightly different theologies and and stuff.
Derek Kreider:So it it really wasn't all that revolutionary. What Kierkegaard does is far more revolutionary. And, you know, maybe I don't know where the Anabaptists would be in this because you've got you've got nonviolence and and certain groups throwing off the state completely, which are which is pretty revolutionary. You've got, I think, it's the Hutterites or or whatever who share their wealth in common. I mean, the Anabaptists are doing some pretty revolutionary things, the various sects.
Derek Kreider:Mhmm. But, you know, that's that's more like, I guess, what we see in Jesus. And that that's that's something that started me down this path was when I was like, man, everybody everybody wanted to kill Jesus. People wanna kill Christians in other countries. Like, why don't people wanna kill me?
Derek Kreider:And, well, because we're part of the the power system and we're not revolutionary. We we really aren't. So Mhmm. I don't know. Any maybe where we would go with this is one of the themes that I've had throughout this season is kind of a false prophet versus a true prophet.
Derek Kreider:And I I think it was you who shared, Reinhold Niebuhr's article, The King's Court.
Taylor Storey:I don't think so. I mean, I I I deep I respect Niebuhr a lot, but, I don't know that much about him.
Derek Kreider:Okay. Well, he he had this article, like, called the something like the king's court. But, basically, he's he's talking about how, I think he was referring to Billy Graham when he was when he was writing, but he's basically saying, you look in the Bible, and the prophets who are in the king's court aren't the good ones. The prophets who are
Taylor Storey:who are in
Derek Kreider:the wilderness tend to be the the ones that are the good ones because getting close to the power is not usually good. So I would say that Kierkegaard, he there's a lot of self sacrifice that he had to do. He he knew what could happen because of his ideas. And he seems like a true prophet because he's not calling people to easy things, and he's not speaking from a position of power. He's speaking from a position that's going to probably have people throw stones at him.
Derek Kreider:Maybe you could talk about about, the importance of of Kierkegaard as a true prophet as compared to false prophet.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. I did I was doing more research on the Kierkegaard thing, and this kind of pulls a little bit to the side. But, I uncovered I was just trying to find, like, a historical line, like, okay, Kierkegaard influenced who? You know, and there is, like, a big, historical line. But then this idea of kind of 2 Christianities, one of, like, the more powerful Christendom, but then another one that's a little bit harder, more prophetic, to pull from one of my favorite one of the most other most helpful people, Cornel West, talks about the prophetic versus the Constantinian versions of Christianity.
Taylor Storey:And that would I mean, it's it's like as you read deeper, you find it everywhere. So Niebuhr saying this thing, rather than King's Court makes so much sense. But actually before Kierkegaard, because I think he wrote that, attack upon Christendom, which by the way, the one thesis is that Christianity no longer exists, and his one task is to reintroduce Christianity to Christendom. That's what and then he won the title, he wrote Sickness Unto Death and Training in Christianity, intending for them to be one book, and that was gonna be called subtitled, reintroducing Christianity to Christendom. That was his, like so sickness unto death and training Christianity.
Taylor Storey:We're supposed to be together with that subtitle. I can't remember what he's gonna call it, the title. But, but, yeah, then it ended up getting split up and, whatever. But, he said that in 1855. In 18 45, Frederick Douglass wrote, his autobiography, his first he wrote it like 3 times.
Taylor Storey:But his first autobiography, and at the very end of it, he he, like, wrote, like, a I think it's it's the it's called the appendix. And he just says, what I have said respecting Christianity, I intend only to to apply to the slave holding Christianity of this land, not of the pure peaceable can't remember all the descriptive all the adjectives he used to describe Jesus. But he's like, I consider them completely diametrically opposed to them, the slave holding Christianity of the United States versus the pure, peaceable, Christianity of Christ. So then he has and that's that was the earliest I could find of this to Christianity idea, 18 45, which incidentally the same year that the Southern Baptist Convention left the American Missionary Baptists because the American Missionary Baptists decided that they were not gonna allow slaveholding pastors. And so all the slaveholders left the American Baptists to start the Slave Holding Baptist Convention or Southern Baptist Convention in 18/45, the same year that, Frederick Douglass wrote that thing about slave holding Christianity.
Taylor Storey:But it's very profitable. Slave holding is extremely profitable. I feel like we don't acknowledge. And powerful Christianity in general is extremely profitable, and we forget that power can do a lot of things to justify itself. It can do a lot of charity, to justify itself.
Taylor Storey:I could talk about George Whitehead for a minute if you wanted, but because he are you familiar with that story?
Derek Kreider:I don't think so.
Taylor Storey:Or it's Whitfield, actually. George George Whitfield.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. Yeah. Whitfield. Yeah. He, he he got slaves in order to, fund an orphanage.
Derek Kreider:Is that
Taylor Storey:Right. Yes. Yeah. So and that was that, like, similar time period, I think. He was actually, like, nominally against slavery with thought it's, you know, not that great of an idea, and then and he was trying to raise money for his orphanage, and somebody was like, well, here's 7 slaves.
Taylor Storey:And he's like, okay. I'll treat him good. And then as soon as, like, it started working out for him, he was like, I like slavery actually. And so Georgia, he even influenced Georgia to become a slave state. It was gonna become, like, no black people, allowed basically, but then they were like, okay.
Taylor Storey:We'll take black slaves in large part because of George Whitfield. So
Derek Kreider:Yeah. That's, you know, that's something that that, that was the turning point for me. It it was the it was the thing that showed me. It just changed my mind on a lot of different things, was this consequentialism that I saw. You know, it started with Trump, where it's wait wait a second.
Derek Kreider:Like, you're throwing off all this integrity because it's like, well, we gotta win. Why? For abortion. It's like, well, yeah, but that you're doing a bad thing to get something that you perceive as a good thing. Like, that's still you get how that's not a good thing.
Derek Kreider:Right? But they didn't. It's like you I will do anything as long as the thing that I'm fighting against, I perceive as more evil. And so you see it just I I think Christendom is filled with consequentialism. I think it it runs on that as fuel.
Taylor Storey:Mhmm. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I think he's as we look in history, we just see it over and over and over, and we don't realize, I think, that we inherit, like, the choices of the previous generation.
Taylor Storey:And so we look and we say, why aren't there any black people in our church? And it's like, oh, it's because, like, the previous generation, like, literally ran them off. And so the you know, oh, it wasn't me, you know, or whatever, but it doesn't matter because, like, it was already done. It was chosen for you, you know, that we inherited this weird thing. Consequentialism.
Taylor Storey:Good good term. Good term.
Derek Kreider:So yeah. Go ahead.
Taylor Storey:I I was just gonna say that's kinda sidetracked the Kierkegaard thing, but, Frederick Douglass helped me understand that a little bit more. And then, as I know it's like it's oh, it's been present throughout, Christian history. But I think Kierkegaard might have been, like, the first to, like, really name it intensely. Because also, like you said, they're reformers, and I was very interested in the things you had to say about Zwingli because I haven't really looked into him very much. But, but, yeah, Luther, I mean, he he was passionate about a few things and, very thankful for the impact that he had.
Taylor Storey:But then, yeah, it was co opted by much of the of the princes and, you know, I don't know that, like, King James is a particularly good guy, but, we owe a lot of the English bible to him. The the I'm thinking of the Anglican church, sort of thinking of, any of the churches just became a different version of the same. But there's, but there's also I think there's the there's the, liberative parts and the oppressive parts of of every tradition is is kind of the way that there's priests and prophets.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. It's certainly not to say that that everybody was bad or but you've you have a system that, that is is problematic. And, you know, it was interesting when you told me that a lot of Christians don't read Kierkegaard, you know, that this Christian who's who has this internal critique. And I think people are doing the same thing with with people who are, you know, deconstructing today, where it's like, well, they're not they're not really Christians, so I don't have to listen to their critique because they're not true Christians. Mhmm.
Derek Kreider:It it's nice to be able to dismiss so you don't really have to to listen to those critiques and and maybe change and apply. Mhmm. So kind of running with that, a little bit earlier, we talked about broadening consequentialism and and talked about how Kierkegaard is a I I perceive him as a true prophet. He might not have been right about everything, but he he he was trying to get the church right. Mhmm.
Derek Kreider:One of the one of the things that I think you see with true prophets are that they're they're idealists. And what I what I mean by that isn't that they're naive in the sense that they think that they're necessarily gonna achieve the ideal, but they say, hey, look, this is the ideal. And even if I don't attain that, even if I don't affect the results, I'm not a consequentialist, and I'm going to cling to the ideal and pursue the ideal even if I don't obtain that because that's that's what Christians are supposed to do. You know, Jesus, all of all of his teachings are essentially ideals. I'm not gonna love my neighbor perfectly.
Derek Kreider:Even even in the most loving thing I do for them, there's probably some some seed of self interests involved that I can't weed out. So, nevertheless, I pursue to love my neighbor more and more until, hopefully, I can weed that out even if that's after I'm I'm dead and resurrected. Mhmm. So maybe you could talk a little bit about Kierkegaard, and, I don't know if you have any ideas about the ideal that that kind of motivated him, that he latched on to, that that drove him forward, and, how that was important for for him to have to deal with with critique and hardship and and those sorts of things.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. I think that
Taylor Storey:I it's an interesting question because I'm trying to think, okay, what was his ideal that he was after? And I think, I think that it was perhaps so much in its infancy that that I mean, it's like he just was trying to call people into a Christianity that was a little bit more aware, maybe. And it's almost like, yeah, it was a it's a practice of seeing what it means to be good news to the poor, I think. I think because he saw the, like, Christendom that was just, excited about the wealth, excited about the domination. And people even there's a quote that you, put in the notes about soldiers aspiring to be generals.
Taylor Storey:And I think that he wanted to see so like, a more soldier wait. And I think in the quote, he says, were you gonna bring this up later, or am I stealing your thunder right now? Because he said something about, like, not every soldier can be a general, but, like, the best soldiers. Like, everybody wants a soldier that aspires to be a general, but he's, like, 99% of the of the soldiers are not going to become generals. So why do we, like, put this fantasy on on the soldiers to, like, fail to?
Taylor Storey:And what if we focused on becoming a more, working class? There's a door that's about to slam right now. What if we aspire to be a more working class kind of, have a a more working class approach? I guess, not that everybody's trying to become a billionaire or something like this, but, that we could do something that, values the common person. So I think that, potentially, Jesus and Kierkegaard are both advocating this.
Taylor Storey:Just the prophets in general, tend to be advocating good news to the poor, which is what Isaiah said and then Jesus quoted. I think it's Luke 4 where he said, I came to bring good news to the poor. And blessed are the poor. That's Luke. Luke Matthew, of course, has the in spirit part, but then Luke doesn't.
Taylor Storey:He just said, blessed are the poor, and then woe to you who are rich. So that's another part that I I feel like never got mentioned that much, but, in the Christianity that I grew up in, that there is, like, this poor and rich distinction. And I think that Kierkegaard was trying to bring that in. And it's you know, it can be scary for some people, but Kierkegaard and Marx both studied in Berlin at the same time in the same place. Kierkegaard interacted a little bit more with Feuerbach, who is, like, a little bit more focused on religion.
Taylor Storey:But Kierkegaard and Marx also have the same birthday, May 5th. So Marx emphasizing this, like, workers thing and then Kierkegaard, advocating this, like, poor version of Christianity. I'm not sure that they're so different. And, there is, like, a weird part where Kierkegaard says, that he it's also in his journals, somewhere that he says he talks about, like, the secret that he never let out, except in one place. This one, like, book on Adler, it's called.
Taylor Storey:And so I dug into book on Adler and was trying to think, what is the secret that he's talking about? And, he makes a reference to Fleuerbach. Feuerbach, who in many ways, like, kind of well, ended the liberal version of Christianity as kind of, like, before fundamentalism kind of ever became a dominant thing. It was kinda like Schleiermacher is the father of liberal Christianity, which is kind of like individualist. I don't know.
Taylor Storey:It's hard it's hard to, like, summarize really shortly. And as soon as you start to talk about Kieran, Feuerbach, Schleiermacher, Marx, everybody has, like, their thoughts on what each of those people were trying to do, and mine is, potentially a little bit nuanced. But, but I think that Kierkegaard wanted to be the Feuerbach who stayed Christian. And in a way, Karl Barth is kind he brings a bunch from Kierkegaard. He was a big fan of Kierkegaard, as far as I'm aware.
Taylor Storey:I mean, there's probably a lot of Bartians out there that could do better on that topic than I could. But I think what Bart Bart actually has a intro to Fleuerbach where he says, yes, Fleuerbach was right about Schleiermacher's Christianity. But he has not approached, like, the Christianity that Bart is talking about and Kierkegaard is talking about. So, and Marx builds off of understanding. So, anyways, I don't know.
Taylor Storey:Going into the weeds with that again, which is a thing that can happen. But, what was the what was the question again? What where were we?
Derek Kreider:It was, Kierkegaard's ideal what drove him. And and I think you've been saying the the poor was influential significantly. I think that's the gist so far.
Taylor Storey:So yeah. And I think that, this, like, Fleurbach and Marxian, potentially more the ideal of Marx, not that he obtained it, but, I was thinking as you were talking, I was thinking about Philippians 3 the whole time where you said because Paul says, was that I aspire to the resurrection of Christ and the fellowship in his suffering. Not that I have already obtained it, but I press on towards the goal. So Paul knows he's not perfect either, and I think that that's the a humility piece that, that I think actually and Marx, actually, I think that they all have this. I don't know so much that Feuerbach has it exactly, but definitely Kierkegaard and Marx, I think they have this, sense that of humility that, like, Marx goes back and revises a lot of his, earlier writings, which is something that not that many people know, but, that's the idea of, that Hegel, who taught all of them, Kierkegaard didn't like Hegel, but it's kind of like a a nuanced thing.
Taylor Storey:And I think it was related to this Christendom versus Christianity thing. I think that Kierkegaard saw Hegel as part of Christendom, even though he had, like, some very influential ideas, like, particularly historical materialism and the dialectic or not historical materialism. That's that's Marx. It would just be the the process of modernity, the dialectic of revising itself.
Derek Kreider:It's funny because, you know, when you talk about philosophy, it sounds so elevated. And but then when you start comparing philosophers, it sounds like a soap opera.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I mean, I think it I think it is. I think it is.
Taylor Storey:And it sounds elevated. I was like, oh, no. And and if you are in those academic circles, man, well, I don't I don't it's the same as, like, a Christian thing. Like, how many angels can you fit on the head of a pin? You know?
Taylor Storey:And it's like, oh my gosh. Like, I don't think this even matters. And it's, there's a lot of that. But I think once you are able to kinda get a grasp on something like Kierkegaard's idea of Christianity, I think that, but Kierkegaard was very much, like, individualist. I don't think he, I would almost say he's, like, a Christian version of Nietzsche in a way as well, which, a lot of people probably wouldn't like to hear.
Taylor Storey:But, but I read Nietzsche as much more Christian than many others do. Like, I think that you could put this Christianity versus Christendom idea, on Nietzsche, though he is in a time period where he thinks that there's no reintroducing Christianity to Christendom, and he wants to scrap the whole language. He wants to scrap the whole thing and start over. Whereas Kierkegaard thinks that the Christian project can be reintroduced. Yes, sir.
Taylor Storey:And I I yeah. Go ahead.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I wanna go back just a little bit. It it was interesting how, you know, you pulled out the poor from from that quote on the the military, whereas I I kind of read a little bit further and and pulled out a different emphasis on the end slightly. But it it reminds me a little bit of what you said with Paul in Philippians 3 where he knows he's not gonna obtain perfection yet. He he pushes on, right, towards the goal.
Derek Kreider:And, at at the end of of that quote that you were referencing, with the generals and the enlisted men, you know, Kierkegaard goes on to talk about how he's like, look, if if the enlisted people don't desire to be generals, if everybody just enlists and they're like, well, I'm happy where I am, you know, no moving up the ranks. I'm good. He's like, what kind of what kind of army are you gonna have? You have all these unmotivated people who aren't becoming better soldiers, who aren't getting smarter, who aren't, you know, jumping through the hoops that of discipline that get them better. He's like, they're they're all gonna die in the trenches, or or that's what I envision.
Derek Kreider:Because then he says, he says that basically the church is saying to these people, hey, be tranquil. You're just like all the other soldiers. You're just like everybody else. You'll become blessed just like everybody else. You know, no no need to progress.
Derek Kreider:And he says that that's a euphemism for you're all going to hell like all the others, but this truth won't produce any money. And the other teachings pay pay brilliantly, you know, to tell people that they're fine just where they are. And so that's what in my mind, the ideal you know, maybe maybe poverty was kind of a driving force socially for him. Mhmm. But it it seems like, bringing up individualism, it seems like this individuality of don't be like one of the masses.
Derek Kreider:You are your own person who, should be trying to become a general, should be progressing through the ranks, should be, becoming more and more disciplined. So it's it seems like that that makes a lot of sense with what you said, this this self motivation towards towards being like Jesus, the general, whatever Jesus is.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. Yeah. And, actually, I mean, you could read this as a as a critique of of Marx Marxian thought, also. And it makes sense, but he doesn't name I guess, here, he doesn't name or does he? Doesn't name what his ideal of that he's after is.
Taylor Storey:He just said that he has one.
Derek Kreider:Right. Yeah. I didn't I didn't see a specific.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. I I think and I think it's probably it's just so much it's so much in its infancy, like, the the the possibility. So he's just,
Taylor Storey:which also is kinda prophetic in
Taylor Storey:a way. Like, I feel like the, the prophets are tend to be saying love your neighbor and you're not loving your neighbor so your your community is gonna fall apart. But they don't exactly say, like, what will happen. I I mean, like, God will show up, you know, like, something
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I I guess what what they do a lot of times is they say, you know, turn away from your idols or stop oppressing. They don't as far as I can think of it, there's not a whole lot of positive because it's like, well, you know you know what god says that you're supposed to do. So they're just like, I know that this picture that I see in front of me is terrible. Stop doing that.
Taylor Storey:Right.
Derek Kreider:And so it seems like maybe that's what Kierkegaard is doing. He doesn't I'm not that familiar with all his works, but I don't know that he puts forth a ton of positives so much as he attacks Christendom and and and just says, hey. We know that that's not good.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I I sympathize with the critique of that saying, okay, well, what do you want me to do? You know, like, what do what are you about if you're, you know, I sympathize with that critique, but I actually just don't think that it's, it's just a much more simple way.
Taylor Storey:And maybe even that's a little key to existentialism in general, is that it's it's much more simple. Like, what Kierkegaard, is remembered by the secular, readers is that he's just advertising, advocating a much simpler, thing, which I think is existentialism. Not that it's easy, but it's simple.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I mean, it's love justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. Kierkegaard can say, that's not it. You know? I'm okay.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. You're not loving justice. You're not, walking humbly with your God.
Derek Kreider:I might I might not be able to give you a a a huge formula of what to do, but I know that you shouldn't be doing that.
Taylor Storey:Mhmm. Yeah. I think that's the one of the quotes that I was thinking of when he says, I'm not a Christian. This like, he's he says, like, just because I can say that you're that you're not a Christian, doesn't mean I am a Christian, which, you know, again, might be part of that, like, humility of not that I've already obtained it, but I press on towards towards the goal of the Philippians 3 thing.
Derek Kreider:I I wanna okay. I think I think this is actually the next one's the last question I have on Kierkegaard, I think. So I, yeah, I I would consider myself a Christian anarchist because I think every iteration of the state is terrible because nobody does anything good with consolidated power. Well, I shouldn't say that you don't do anything good with it. I just think the the bad is always gonna be there in in huge proportions.
Derek Kreider:But Kierkegaard I like Kierkegaard in part because he he kind of rails against the state and and points that out. And one of the things that I've talked about this season is I don't know if you're familiar with, David Graeber, but he, he talks about okay. Good. Yeah. And
Taylor Storey:Not so familiar, but I do like his work. I mean, yeah, I like his stuff.
Derek Kreider:I've I've seen a couple of his videos, and I've only read one of his book. I have some on my reading list, but they just they haven't fit for this season. But one of the things that I I like, that he says that he points out and I and it's probably not novel to him, but, you know, he says that there are essentially three methods that that people use to control. They use power, information, and charisma. And, it seems like as a Christian, I can say, well, manipulating any of those 3 seems to distort God's intended order because power becomes violence, manipulating information becomes deception or untruth, and, manipulating charisma becomes seduction.
Derek Kreider:Right? Saying, bribing and seducing people to do things that, they otherwise wouldn't do that that aren't good. This year, we are we are coming up into an election year in in the States. And there aren't any groups chomping at the bit as as much as conservative evangelical Christians are chomping at the bit to get their guy in power. Maybe girl, but probably guy.
Derek Kreider:How I'd love for you to talk a little bit about Kierkegaard maybe in relation to the states, in relation to to power, and and then help us to segue into what we're gonna talk about next, which is and then compare that to conservative Christians and, our desire for power and how that maybe pits us against the true prophets? How does it make us false prophets?
Taylor Storey:Yeah. It's interesting because I think that Kierkegaard's language gets co opted by the conservative Christianity, whatever word we're gonna use for that. Like this, critique of the government, that I also grew up with. It said, Oh, we're all for a small government, you know. And then I realized, Well, how come we're, like How come in military we just want to massively increase this every chance we get?
Taylor Storey:Like, here's unending massive military presence globally, just absolutely nauseating the amount that we spend on blowing other places up. And so I was like, that's not small government. You know? And so I became, like, a libertarian, like, pretty quickly. I I I don't think that there's they have a very good later, I I kind of came to the conclusion, I don't think they have a good answer for wealth inequality.
Taylor Storey:And I think that that's probably one of the biggest problems we have today. So I don't identify as libertarian anymore, but if coming from the Republican or or conservative Christian perspective, I think that, they co opt this language of being against the government, which Kierkegaard would certainly was. And it makes sense, to have a kind of Christian anarchism and be connected to Kierkegaard. I think you can get that from Kierkegaard. And David Graeber, also, very, historically informed anarchist perspective, That isn't so crazy as I as I, you know, inherited the idea that anarchism was so crazy, but it's it's actually, like, makes a lot of sense.
Taylor Storey:So it makes sense to me that Kierkegaard, but then thinking of the religious right and their demand for power, I think that especially if you look at the Southern Baptist Convention being the slave holding Baptist Convention, they are not anti government, actually. They are very pro government. And they left the they they left the American Baptist who wanted to critique it a bit more. So and yet they would now say, oh, we're critiquing. We we wanna drain the swamp.
Taylor Storey:You know, Trump wants to drain the swamp, but it's almost like the little bit of kind of civil rights thing. I think that's what they that is what they're actually, draining. We know and we're gonna talk about, I guess, the the historical stuff. But the the conservative Christians, you know, Jerry Falwell, in particular, got his start by being, anti civil rights by saying that, God ordained the separation of black and white people and, that the decision to desegregate was anti God. And then he started what became Liberty University, as a whites only segregation academy, like, pretty openly.
Taylor Storey:This is like, they pulled their students out of the public school and started these segregation academies, and it tends to be Christian academies. What Christian meant was, a segregation academy, in most places. So, their critique of government is actually the critique of, like, a little bit of justice being inserted. I don't know that desegregation was done perfectly. I don't think that it, fixed many problems in the United States.
Taylor Storey:I don't think that that putting a Black Lives Matter sticker on your car is particularly effective at at adding much justice to, to our world. But, but I think it's a little bit better than advocating, segregation or saying we're not going to address those kind of social things.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. On that really quickly, I'd I, just read a book a few weeks ago called This Vast Southern Empire, which was fascinating to me because he kind of he says some of the things that that or he he gives examples of of what you just said where, he's like, you know, when the civil war happened, you had tons of people, tons of Southerners that were in in in positions. It's like they weren't in positions of agriculture. They were in positions related to military and foreign affairs and those sorts of things because they just they dominated and populated the areas that were going to expand the empire in part because of slave holding works well by expanding and having more places for slaves to be, but also to preserve their, you know, to preserve slave holding. So they were actually very big government, and and a part of the reason that the early United States spread so much was was Southerners who are theoretically about states' rights and not big federal government, yet they were the ones kind of fueling that.
Derek Kreider:And then, you know, another aspect that's always interesting to me is you got these people who want states' rights, but then when it when it comes to, when there's a slave that crosses state lines, that state that they cross into doesn't have the right to keep them there. Right? They have to give them back. Right? No states' rights.
Derek Kreider:Mhmm. So yeah. Yeah. Exactly what you said makes a lot of sense. I grew up small government.
Derek Kreider:You know, it doesn't work out that way. I think the first person I president I voted for was was, Bush 2, and he, like, upped the debt by bajillions.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we were in the same living in the same building at that time, and I think that, you know, the same thoughts were probably in our worlds that was just like, this is not actually small government. Like, what we're if if we're about small government, which I think is a kind of a noble ideal, Republicans aren't doing it. Or, like, you know, the conservative Christian thing is not is not advocating small government.
Taylor Storey:They they just I think they're just against, like, the community aspects, actually. So as I've drifted more, you know, to the left, like, whatever that means to whatever people, I think that I've seen that they want big community and small government. And the conservative Christianity that I grew up in wants big government, small community. But we use the word the right uses government for community and then the left uses the word community for government. I don't know.
Taylor Storey:Do you know what I'm saying? What I'm trying to say?
Derek Kreider:Yeah. Yeah. We like a we like a big government to be in other countries and on other people's doorsteps, to to make sure that it ensures my personal wealth and freedom here to do what I wanna do. I don't care if that other person in the other country doesn't get to do what they wanna do or live. Mhmm.
Derek Kreider:But you're saying for the for the left, it would be more like, no, no, no. Keep, like, keep our military here. Let's let's spend on making infrastructure better. Let's spend on, you know, childcare so that, we can help parents out in communities. Yeah.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. So that that's the way I see it now. Like, I'm I'm for small government, big community. But I feel like that was flipped. We will be there's no distinction between community and government, I I suppose.
Taylor Storey:There's not enough of a distinction. And then I think the centrist perspective is is maybe more dumb than both, which is, like, maybe we can just have a little bit of slavery. How about that? You know? Like, maybe we can just let the South have slaves and the North will, you know, like, not great, actually.
Taylor Storey:But what if we just stick a Black Lives Matter sticker on on you know, what if we rename the street after Martin Luther King? How about that? How about that? You know? Like, it's not gonna probably not not particularly a good symbolic victory, but it's not very much significant.
Derek Kreider:Right. I I want to, build a bridge now to the next century. Well, I guess it's
Taylor Storey:Yeah.
Derek Kreider:It's kinda partly the 19th century, but going into the 20th. And this is more your wheelhouse. So I'm I'm sure you'll you'll have at it here. But, for me, I'm I'm still an evangelical. And like you said, I don't know what to call myself.
Derek Kreider:Am I conservative, evangelical? Like, it depends. Are you talking theologically, morally, various sorts of things? Mhmm. I don't know what I am, but I I am in an evangelical denomination, and I agree with a lot of the theology.
Derek Kreider:Mhmm. But the the orthopraxia, I have I have some big problems with.
Taylor Storey:And so
Derek Kreider:I I wanna focus on that group. We could focus on on where Kierkegaard goes for a lot of different groups of people, but this is my group, and I want to create some internal critique for myself and for my group. So I I want you to maybe build a bridge from Kierkegaard into the the late 19th century and early 20th and get us to the rise of fundamentalism, which which then will lead into evangelicalism. And, specifically, I know you like to bring up Dwight Moody, so maybe maybe have him as a a main character here.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. So this is kind of like the master's thesis that I wrote was, I discovered a book called Guaranteed Pure by Tim Glegg, talking about Moody Bible Institute and business and Christianity and how it all tied together. And he just had, like, kind of this, like, half chapter, so talking about the Haymarket affair and how Dwight Moody was a big winner in that, in that moment because, so, like, starting a little bit further back, Cyrus McCormack senior had, this was in 18/32, which is a big year for a lot of things. It's also the year that Emerson decided not to be a pastor. It's, like, kind of my other thing I'm really excited about is the American Transcendentalists of which Ralph Waldo Emerson is one of the most famous.
Taylor Storey:He decided to not be a pastor anymore. To be a better pastor is what he wrote in his journal that year. But, that same year, Cyrus McCormack senior and his the person that he enslaved named Joe Anderson developed the grain harvester, this thing that could be pulled behind a horse. And it was kind of the 1st year that it was successful in in accomplishing what they wanted it to accomplish, which was, just a massive rate big. It's just way more efficient than, what had been done before.
Taylor Storey:And, so, yeah, it became marketed and he he got really, McCormick got really wealthy off of this. Joe Anderson, not so much. But what McCormick senior did with a lot of his wealth was he tried to advocate for the slave holding Christianity. He even started a seminary in Chicago called McCormick Theological Seminary, that was intended to be kind of a bastion of southern slave holding Christianity in Chicago in the north. He went to Chicago because it was geographically, well situated to get his, to get wood and resources on Lake Michigan, the Great Lakes, which is like the Great Lakes.
Taylor Storey:I don't know. I've never been to Chicago. Only one time, it was the airport. But it was well situated to get his, harvester to Farmers West and the resources that he needed to build lots and lots of these, grain harvesters and use that to advocate against Abraham Lincoln. In fact, they were born, I think, in the same year, and they just, like, butted heads, constantly, McCormick Senior and Abraham Lincoln.
Taylor Storey:Eventually, McCormick, even his theological seminary ended up turning on him. They started becoming abolitionists, and he'd pull his money out, and he was, like, kind of upset that he was creating abolitionists by advocating Christianity. So, yeah, I think that's a cool part of the story, that it kept flipping on him. And eventually he loses, right? And Abraham Lincoln issues the Emancipation Proclamation, and so Joe Anderson is freed, and McCormick senior ended up he did buy a house for him somewhere.
Taylor Storey:I'm not sure where, but and Joe Anderson, like, dies in obscurity, and McCormick is obviously still a big deal. He passes off his grain harvester thing to his son, Cyrus McCormick Junior. And one of the first things that Cyrus McCormick Junior does is he starts bringing in, like, all these kind of machines so he can make, he's way more profitable than he was before because he needs less people and his even the workers that were there are becoming, more and more efficient. And they're saying, hey, what if we have the 8 hour workday? Because we don't we're good at what we do.
Taylor Storey:We don't need to work these 10 hour days, 6 days a week, anymore, and it would probably better better for our community if we had more time to do things. And McCormick Junior was, like, coming from the slave holding Christianity, I think that these the origins of McCormick's thing, we owe to a lot a lot to his father's slave holding Christianity perspective that God gave me money, and I get to choose how I spend it, and more profit is good for me, more money, and so more charity, potentially, or not, whatever the case may be. And so he decides to fire half of his people and, make the rest of them work more and harder. Pretty a lot like Pharoah, you know, Pharoah and Moses. But Cyrus McCormick junior, like his father before him, is advocating he's using Christian words to to do this stuff.
Taylor Storey:And he has a good friend named Dwight Moody who keeps saying, I wanna start a Bible school, to advocate this personal plain practical approach. And so the people of Chicago protest on May 1, 18, 86. It becomes a big deal.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. We Yeah. We celebrate that here in Europe. I think not not so much in the States,
Taylor Storey:It's so weird. Yeah. That's very weird. And in fact, Joe Biden, the, Marxist communist that apparently he is, I don't I don't think he has anything to do with any of those things, but he actually declared May 1st loyalty day. So it's it's not even they want to distract from this event.
Taylor Storey:And what happened was the people of Chicago are protesting, the workers of Chicago are protesting and saying this is unjust. We should be building a community that works for everybody, and instead we're, like, making some people extremely wealthy and most people extremely poor. But McCormick doesn't care and the police, you know, it just doesn't make sense to people, whatever. So people are protesting. McCormick hires strike breakers, becomes, you know, a yelling match, potentially some violence, whatever.
Taylor Storey:The police come in on May 3rd and kill 4 protesters. Next day, May 4th, they have a thing, demonstration in Haymarket Square, And a preacher actually, Samuel Fielden, is giving the talk saying that God cares about the workers. I don't know that he's being explicitly theological, but his theology certainly informs his advocating for the people, for the working people as opposed to McCormick Junior. Somebody throws a bomb. The police come well, the police come in, then somebody throws a bomb, and the police open fire on everybody.
Taylor Storey:And I think the possibly agreed upon it's about 200 and something wounded and about, I think, it's 14 dead. Samuel Fielding gets shot as he's trying to run away, but McCormick and the police and everybody just have this big panic that, the workers are just getting out of line. And so they they know who the the activists are, and they arrest 100, but they end up sentencing 8 to death. 4 of those people are killed. I think the only one that was present at the time of this of this moment was Samuel Fielding who was preaching or giving the talk.
Taylor Storey:But he gets sentenced to death, just like the 7 others, who all actually advocate anarchism, or are connected and sympathetic towards anarchism, because they they think that the government at the time is not great, the Cyrus McCormick Junior government. And so Moody then uses this moment to say, hey, Cyrus McCormick, you need me to put a Bible school in, and I will train Christian workers. I will tell people that, you know, they should submit to you. He does actually have a little critique for McCormick Junior. Yeah.
Taylor Storey:I have to give him that. Like, he thinks that the firing of half of the workforce was pretty unjust. Cyrus McCormick's mom also says, yo. That's not that that's not that cool what you did, and you're gonna create problems. But he kinda just goes for it and, like, does the hard thing and fires everybody and and then kind of slightly moderates, but not really.
Taylor Storey:So then, Moody, then with this massive I think it was like $100,000, which is, you know, a lot at that time period, starts the Chicago Evangelization Society, which we now know as the Moody Bible Institute. It's renamed when Moody died to the Moody Bible Institute, 18/99. He died December 18/99. Actually, a big controversial controversy moment, but we won't get into that. So you have the Moody Bible Institute, but it's it's it's the it's the Christendom.
Taylor Storey:It's Cyrus McCormick junior's version of Christianity, not Samuel Fielding's version of Christianity. Samuel Fielding's Christian anarchist and even. So from the Moody Bible Institute, they hire Reuben Archer Torrey. Reuben Archer Torrey, actually gets mixed up. That this is a scandal.
Taylor Storey:The scandal is that he didn't believe in medicine at the time period. And so his daughter got really sick, 8 year old daughter Elizabeth, and he said, I'm just gonna pray. I'm gonna like, God is gonna heal her. I'm not gonna give her the medicine. And at the last moment, he, like, realized, Oh, my God.
Taylor Storey:I think she's gonna die. Calls in the doctor. The doctor comes. It's too late. The girl dies.
Taylor Storey:8 year old girl dies. And, you know, everybody that knows the situation is just like, What are you doing? Dwight Moody was not against medicine. In fact, he was like, We need to, like, medicine is a good thing. It's we should bring this in.
Taylor Storey:And so he differed with Tory on this. That's why there was a big controversy at Moody's death. And Tory actually decides that it was his wavering is what killed his daughter. So his lack of faith in the last moment. He called in the doctor and said, that was my problem.
Taylor Storey:God was gonna save her. Whatever. But there's a disagreement and problems. And so Tory needs out. He he first goes on a world tour world speaking tour.
Taylor Storey:He speaks all over the world. But then this guy named Lyman Stewart, who is very wealthy from 76 slash Union Oil. He's a Pennsylvanian but living in Los Angeles and upset it. He's trying to control Occidental Bible College, which is a it's a very prestigious school in Los Angeles, and, he was donating $3,000 a year to their bible department. He wanted, like, a Dwight Moody style bible department at Occidental College, but the people were like, no.
Taylor Storey:You can't just donate money and then dictate who gets hired and who gets fired, etcetera. So he says, alright. Screw you guys. I'm starting my own Bible Institute. I'm gonna call it the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, modeled after the Moody Bible Institute.
Taylor Storey:I like what, you know, Cyrus McCormick, and I like Dwight Moody's version of Christianity. So let's do the let's do Biola, is what it's today called Biola University. And then he hears a guy named Ansey Dixon who whose brother is Thomas Dixon who wrote a book called The Klansman. And, basically, Thomas Dixon was kind of, the book The Klansman then becomes an early movie, called Birth of a Nation, which, like, revitalized the KKK. So Thomas Dixon's brother, Amsy Dixon, was a preacher that, Lyman Stewart pulls and says, okay.
Taylor Storey:Alright, Torrey and Tom, Amsy Dixon, I want you to create these documents that are basically Moody's Christianity, but, like, none of this, like, social stuff. We don't want people advocating like the Samuel Fielding thing. Of course, they don't know who Samuel Fielding is, but, you know, none of this, like, Christian anarchism, none of this Christian, advocating for working people. You know, they need to submit to the divine authority that those of us with money have. And, so Lyman Stewart, pays for 700,000 copies of these to be sent to everybody that they can get an address for, and they're called the fundamentals, which is where we get the term fundamentalism from.
Derek Kreider:So I I wanna make sure that I'm understanding this because there are lots of names and and things thrown around. Yeah. So tell me if the summary is is correct. The brother or cousin, I guess, brother of the guy who made the film Birth of a Nation that revitalized the KKK worked with the, like, founder or whatever of Biola to create the fundamentals that basically jump started what we know of as fundamental Christianity today.
Taylor Storey:Yes. Yep. That is yeah. Yeah. And the Mzee and his brother Thomas were I mean, they're both southern slash slave holding Baptist, so it's not it's not crazy.
Taylor Storey:Lyman Stewart and the McCormicks were Presbyterians, but Moody is basically the the origin of non denominational Christianity. So he's like, we're not gonna mess with the denominational stuff. And so it was like the conservative Presbyterians and the conservative Baptists that were they were trying to build this movement of fundamentalists, and it didn't quite work out, and it really fizzled out at the Scopes trial when William Jennings Bryan, who's actually kind of a Christian socialist, actually. He was very, theologically conservative, but, was for a big community and thought that the government should intervene. It very it's a very weird thing.
Taylor Storey:William Jennings Bryan, he had the whole thing at the Scopes trial, which was a controversy over whether or not, evolution should be taught in schools. But Clarence Darrow, who is the attorney against, William Jennings Bryan, who's advocating, like, that science, you know, slash evolution should be taught in schools, ended up kind of William Jennings Bryan didn't have, like, a good interpretation of Genesis chapter 1. He had a very face value, interpretation of Genesis 1, and it just was seen as kind of a laughingstock. And William Jennings Bryan died 5 years later, which is crazy. He's 3 time candidate for president.
Taylor Storey:He lost every time, but, big, big advocate for fundamentalist Christianity, which is weird because he was also conservative theology, but, more of a Christian socialism, which is also the same for the what would Jesus do person. His name was Charles Sheldon and also an advocate of Christian socialism. That's what the what would Jesus do thing was about, to advocate for a society rather than profit, pea, people over profit. So fundamentalism though defined there was, like, their 5 points, which was, inerrancy of scripture, which I think for them actually meant, like, Dwight Moody's. I call it the Moody McCormick gospel because I don't think it would have been a big deal if it was only Moody, but because McCormick was the funding behind it.
Taylor Storey:So I think it was his plain interpretation. They he didn't wanna look at the historical, the social, or the literary context, which was what the seminaries were really arguing about at that time period. And Kierkegaard would have been, he wasn't in seminary, but he would have I mean, he's he's advocating a historical or a social look, at Christianity, whereas the fundamentalists wanted to just get rid of that historical social thing and just think about, okay. I wanna read this one verse and then say, what does it mean to me? And then that's how I'm gonna go.
Taylor Storey:So, like, that's what the slave holding Christians did as well. It's, you know, Ephesians 65 says, slaves be obedient to your masters. And they're like, that settles it. You know, slave be obedient to your masters, proslavery. You have to look look at the Exodus, and you're like, is the Exodus slaves being disobedient to their masters?
Taylor Storey:Because you know?
Taylor Storey:So I think
Taylor Storey:that there there's, like, the historical and social context gets discarded by the fundamentalists, and they they start to a big thing also weird weirdly or not was about the virgin birth of Christ because historical and social scholars start to look at the Greek, understanding of what it meant to be born of a virgin. Like, Plato was considered to be born of a virgin, and it meant that he was, like, this elevated figure. And only Matthew and Luke reference the virgin birth of Christ. And so the historical and social scholars start to say, Moody was or Mary wasn't technically a virgin. This is Matthew and Luke's way of saying that Jesus is really important, that Greek people in particular would really understand.
Taylor Storey:So then they kind of discard this idea about or they'd say it's not important, you know, whether or not Virgin, Mary was technically a virgin, but that becomes one of the fundamentalist doctrines. But really what it's about is, like, is historical or social context important, literary context? Is that important to understanding what the Bible has to say? And Dwight Moody wants the Moody McCormick gospel, the Reuben Archer TorreyLyman Stewart gospel of Biola of fundamentalism says, our plain interpretation is the authority, not the historical, social, and literary thing because, wow, that is a can of worms when you open that up, and then all of a sudden you're starting to advocate for these workers who get paid whatever I want to pay them, not not what is, quote, just. This is oh, that's just way too much.
Taylor Storey:You know?
Derek Kreider:So so then you would view the, the inerrancy thing as kind of a cementing of, the inability to question them.
Taylor Storey:Yes. Yes. So, yeah, there's 5 points, and I have them here. I can pull them up real quick. But each of them, inerrancy is number 1, but I think that's more Moody McCormick's face value interpretation, which also I don't wanna say literal also because I think that literal is a problematic term because I think I take the Bible very literally, but, I disagree quite a bit with Moody and McCormick's face value interpretation.
Taylor Storey:But most people, like, think of this in the literal versus metaphorical. I don't like to think of it that way. I think of it as face value versus socially, historically, and literary informed. But, yeah, there's, like, 5 main points of fundamentalism, and it's really just trying to cut out that social, historical, and literary perspective of the bible. Yeah.
Taylor Storey:So then fundamentalism kind of falls apart in 1925, and they're kind of seen as, like, uninformed, anti intellectual, you know, anti science. But then in the humanities, it's like, well, you don't want the historical, you don't want the social, you don't want the literary perspective on things. You just want the perspective that says, you know, you're you're God's chosen people. And, so there's many Bible institutes that are started at this time period, and they start to transition from being called Bible institutes to be called colleges. So our alma mater, Cedarville, is one of these places that, was started, what was it, 18/80 something?
Taylor Storey:But it becomes Cedarville College at this point, rather than Cedarville. I don't know what it was originally called, actually, but, but there's a lot of these, that were started to be fundamentalist kinds of places. And, there's a great book written on this called Fundamentalist You by Adam Lotz, and he just kinda shows that, like, they were created to, like, cut out science, to cut out the wrong kind of the wrong parts of history. They're and it it's it's just it's very frustrating to me that I didn't know this before because I would've probably chosen differently even though I'm happy to have met you and happy to have met the people that I met at Cedarville. But, it was kind of a university built on cancel culture, which I'm not really a fan of on the right or the left.
Taylor Storey:But, but the right, in my in my living experience, the right has done much more canceling than the left has done, whatever the left means because I don't know what that term it means too many different things to too many different people. Same thing with the right too. Let's we'll just be honest about that. But, but, yeah, like, these fundamentalism was basically just a cancel culture kind of a movement.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. And, it might not fit in because I don't really know that much about him. But, I know somebody that you've you've talked about, before was Jay Gresham May Machin. And, you know, I I just looked up his he started Westminster Theological, which is big in in my denomination. He started that in 1929, so right after the the Scopes trial and the fundamentals and all that stuff.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. So and he I mean, I love the Drake Gerstimation story because it shows how much of a hypocrite he was, and it just illustrates so well. But he was he was probably the most he was advocating with, the other guy's name, at Princeton. Princeton was the seminary that was, like, had the most southern people at it, even though it's in New Jersey. But, like, the McCormicks, if I remember right yeah.
Taylor Storey:Actually, they both went to print McCormick senior and McCormick junior, I believe, both went to Princeton. And it was kind of, what's the terminology? And was it it was, I'm so disappointed I'm forgetting the names because you would know this name. It is I think it's called Old School Theology or something like that. And there was this guy, I think it was Charles somebody, in the 1880s.
Taylor Storey:So before
Derek Kreider:Was it Finney? Charles Finney?
Taylor Storey:No. Finney. No. He's he's, he was the abolitionist. Not Spurgeon.
Taylor Storey:I forget the guy's name. He's at Princeton. No. There's a guy at Princeton. I think he's I think the movement that he was about was called I think it was called the old school theology.
Taylor Storey:Right? Let's see if it comes up. Princeton Theology was a creation of conservative blah blah blah. A BB Warfield, that's not the guy, but you heard him before. Charles Hodge.
Taylor Storey:That's what it is. Charles Hodge. So Charles Hodge and J. Goshen Machen were the conservative side of Princeton Theological Seminary, and Princeton wanted to become more open. Machen was not okay with that, and so he wrote kind of the defining book, I would say, of this fundamentalist versus modernist slash liberal Christianity that was called, forgetting it now again, Christianity and liberalism.
Taylor Storey:I think that's what's called Christianity and liberalism. And his, like, thesis statement is that liberal Christianity is not Christianity at all. And I sympathize with him because I'm not a huge fan of liberal Christianity, but I am less of a fan of fundamentalist Christianity. And, so he advocates he's, like, going after kind of Walter Rauschenbusch, who I think is a pretty great he's he's the guy behind the social gospel. So he's advocating the social context of Christianity, which is, I think, something that Kierkegaard also would have probably, advocated.
Taylor Storey:But the social gospel, just saying that God, like, the kingdom of heaven should come to Earth and we should change what's happening on Earth, whereas, the fundamentalists tended to see, everything happening after we die. Like, there's a big part of fundamentalism was also dispensationalism, the, like, rapture idea. That was another thing that Lineman Stewart paid for was this book by William Blackstone called Jesus is Coming. He also sent it out to everybody, and it was it was kind of like the the left behind idea. We didn't have very much time.
Taylor Storey:Jesus is coming back soon. So it's just all about, like, getting as many people to pray this Dwight Moody kind of prayer. That's what Christianity is about, and there's no time to do social stuff, and the world is gonna go it's gonna all be burned anyway, so don't worry about social stuff. Just try to convert people. Walter Rausch and Bush disagreed, and he called this thing the social gospel.
Taylor Storey:What was I saying? Oh, Jay Gresham Machen. And Jay Gresham Machen then says in the introduction it's all an introduction of his book, that the social gospel is not Christianity at all. In fact, it's like, the the gospel is all about individual rights. It comes from the South, Princeton being the, like, Southern Seminary in the North.
Taylor Storey:And but then I was like because I knew, like, he's writing this in 1929. Right? So I was, like, that was not long after, women got the right to vote. So I wonder, was he, like, in favor of women having individual rights? No.
Taylor Storey:He was not. Like, he he advocated against women having the right to vote. And then I knew, like, of course, there's race things happening. So was he against black? That was he an advocate of black people having individual rights?
Taylor Storey:No. He was not advocate. He was in fact, he has this letter that he wrote to his mom about how much he hated that black people were allowed in the dorms at Princeton now. And so so I look at his thing and I'm saying, okay, what individual rights are you talking about? And it's it's very clear from his historical context that he's advocating for, like, the wealthy, the elite, which is, you know, the same thing as Cyrus McCormick.
Taylor Storey:Even though he disagreed with many aspects of fundamentalism, he thought that, they were kind of too plain, and so they needed a more, doctrinally sound, and he didn't think fundamentalism was doctrinally sound, But he landed on the fundamentalist side of the debate, I guess, out of because he was against because he was for individual rights, but and not the individual rights of women and not the individual rights of black people. So, yeah, I think that that illustrates to me the problem with, that states' rights thing because it's like states' rights to what? And Liberty University, liberty for what? And it was liberty to, exploit other people, and liberty cannot think about the the poor in spirit is what I would say. It was so it's to me, it's anti gospel.
Taylor Storey:Even though it uses the words of Christianity, it is Christendom. So So I go back to kindergarten. It's not it's not Christianity. It's Christendom. Yeah.
Taylor Storey:So that was Machen.
Derek Kreider:Because they they were basically, you know, putting forth a theology that I know in in our circles, this, the social gospel was a pejorative term, you know, to say that that's devoid of content. But, you know, then I was introduced to a word later, orthopraxy. And I'm like, oh, well, it seems like that's kind of what the social gospel is. And, like, well, maybe maybe you need a theological and a social gospel. Like, if you wanna say that you need both of those things, that's great.
Derek Kreider:But, like, the social gospel is a part of the gospel. Mhmm.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. And I think that I I think that's a big reason why I left the evangelical fundamentalist tradition is just because I didn't I saw them blasting the social gospel. I didn't see them including it, and so somehow their theology was cutting it out. Whereas yeah. Like, I never heard of Walter Rauschenbusch.
Taylor Storey:I never and I didn't know, like, Walter Rauschenbusch was a huge influence on Martin Luther King. And so, yeah, but then I discovered, I guess, the next part of the story is that so from 1925 until 1949, fundamentalism kinda goes underground. They just focus on their Bible Colleges. At least that's the story that's told. I know there's some people that contest that, but that's, like, the years, like, the mainline denominations became, like, I mean, they were they were already strong.
Taylor Storey:Like, the mainline denominations were yeah. They were strong. They really those mainline slash liberal Christians really invested in the social sphere, so they started, like, public schools. They started a lot of public things. They were involved very involved in FDR's New Deal.
Taylor Storey:So they were advocating, like, society. They were advocating for, like, the infrastructure project. Big community. They're advocating big community. And they weren't so they weren't so particular about whether things were called Christian or not.
Taylor Storey:They were just like, we want to make the world a better place. And they did, but, business people, you know, in the tradition of Cyrus McCarron Junior and Lyman Stewart, were not huge fans of this. And they didn't like that the, like, fundamentalists or their kind of projects of maximizing profit were, being excluded from the mainline denominations. So they started, based but they they agreed many agreed that fundamentalism was problematic. Like, it was too militant.
Taylor Storey:It was too, angry. And so, like, I think one of the one of the most respectable advocates of what became evangelicalism, he's kind of the the founding father of it, is this guy named Carl Henry, Carl f h Henry. You heard of him? Yeah. It was kind of from what I understand, it was kind of like Carl Henry, this guy Gordon Conwell.
Taylor Storey:What was his name? Gordon Conwell Seminary in Boston, and Billy Graham. They kind of, were able to build their first well, there was there was fundamentalist that wanted to, like, regain fundamentalism, but they they saw, like Carl Henry wanted a, like, fundamentalist theology, but then liberal social impact. Something to this effect anyways. This is so he tried to make, like, a middle way of what he wanted to call evangelicalism.
Taylor Storey:And they kind of, like, pulled from Charles Finney because Charles Finney was somebody that a lot of people agreed with, especially in non denominational. He was an abolitionist before it was cool. He was preaching like Moody. He wasn't so tied in with denominations. So they like Charles Finney, and Charles Finney, I think, is, like, the the, like, main person behind the word evangelical.
Taylor Storey:Also, was the there's a college that he did he start? Oberlin Oberlin College. Very kind of socially aware, and Christian, at least, at that time. And Wheaton was one of these colleges also, but then get into the weeds again. But, Wheaton actually ended up getting a fundamentalist president, so he became fundamentalist.
Taylor Storey:I guess he's probably like a William Jennings Bryan type that was theologically conservative, but wanted maybe be so a little bit socially liberal. I'm unaware exactly. But Wheaton has its roots in the Charles g Finney. I think that's 2nd great awakening. I think it's 2nd great awakening.
Taylor Storey:And so Billy Graham, Carl Henry, and the other person whose name I'm forgetting from Boston, they started the National Association of Evangelicals, and Moody wanted to pre or, I mean, Graham, Billy Graham wanted to preach this kind of this simple, message of of Dwight Moody. I mean, I think it wasn't he said often that he wanted to be he wanted to revive the spirit of Dwight Moody. And it wasn't a particular intellectual thing. You know, Dwight Moody was not intellectual, neither was Billy Graham. There's, like, a funny story that, the idol So he Billy Graham has it.
Taylor Storey:He actually is, Charles Templeton. Do you know what Charles Templeton?
Derek Kreider:No. He
Taylor Storey:was him and Billy Graham were buddies, and they the first people to get hired by Youth For Christ in the forties. It would we also have to remember this was the time of World War 2. So, like, people were really desperate for people to, like, to hear messages. It's also the time of CS Lewis. Like, CS Lewis is on the radio in London.
Taylor Storey:Billy Graham and Charles Templeton are touring the United States, like, giving talks to people and kind of advocating some morality during the war against the Nazis. And, so Charles Templeton's from Canada, Billy Graham's from North Carolina, and they're charismatic, fun, engaging, and have good music. They have, like, big production kind of thing that shows up. But neither Graham nor Templeton is educated, and they're starting they're becoming world tour creatures. And they're starting to have, like, behind the scenes talks, like, we're about to speak to 10,000 people, and, like, we have a little bit of doubt.
Taylor Storey:We have got some questions about what we're about to say. And so Templeton is actually, like, I just got into Princeton. Billy, let's go to Princeton. And Billy Graham was, like, that would be awesome, but I'm the president of Northwest Bible College even though, like, I don't really have, like, a formal seminary training. I haven't dealt with this, like, historical criticism thing.
Taylor Storey:I don't really know, like, he's like so Billy says, let's go to Oxford. Let's go to Oxford then, like, that's prestigious enough that it wouldn't, like, conflict with my being the president of Northwest Bible College. But Templeton is already in Princeton Seminary. And so, Templeton goes and Billy Graham doesn't. And, they actually meet up again in Southern California where I used to go to summer camp, a place called Forest Home, And they're at, like, a little conference.
Taylor Storey:It was, like, 1 year into Templeton's time at Princeton. And, Templeton is talking about all the, like, historical stuff that he's learning. And Billy's like, oh my gosh. This is, like, this is big. You know, if if if, like, the version birth idea, if if it's just signaling, if it shouldn't be face value interpreted, then what else am I wrong about?
Taylor Storey:And he's having this question, and then he writes in his first authorized biography that he was on a late night walk in the woods and he's, like, wrestling with this and he's supposed to give a big conference in Los Angeles coming up and he's, like, I don't know if I can do it. Conflicted. And he's like, and then I had the thought that, how's it going? He's like, I don't know how a brown cow can eat green grass and produce white milk, but I drink it. Therefore, I'm gonna preach the Bible the way I know to preach because it works.
Taylor Storey:You know?
Derek Kreider:Kierkegaardian leap of faith. He he must be a Kierkegaard fan. Right?
Taylor Storey:Yeah. Yeah. And, and so he's like, you know what? I'm fully committed. He goes to Los Angeles.
Taylor Storey:He preaches. Radio personality gets converted, and and then, what was his name? The guy behind yellow journalism, William Randolph Hearst. Yellow German is, journalism is like a term for, like, shady journalism. Not not particularly into, you know, aware, but, like, propaganda, I I I suppose maybe not full propaganda.
Taylor Storey:But the guy who's most known for yellow journal journalism, William Randolph Hearst, sends a note out to all his newspapers, Puff Graham. Two words, Puff Graham. And so then the next day, Billy Graham is everywhere. The Los Angeles crusade just, like, explodes, and then now evangelicalism is, like, on the scene, and Billy Graham is, like, this savior. It launches him into a meeting with, first, Harry Truman, but he kind of blows it with Harry Truman.
Taylor Storey:He, like, is not confidential about their conversation. So Truman has not not very many good things to say about, Billy Graham, but Dwight Eisenhower loves Billy Graham and thinks that he needs a God component, specifically a Christian component, to his, campaign to contrast with the Soviet Union. And so he says, alright, Billy. Like, you're in. I'm gonna get baptized by you.
Taylor Storey:So he's the 1st president to get baptized. And Dwight Eisenhower, by the way, is named Dwight because of Dwight Moody. He's named Dwight after Dwight Moody. His mom chooses that. And, so Eisenhower then adds In God We Trust to money and under God to pledge the pledge of allegiance in the fifties.
Taylor Storey:And it's after the war, economics is going great, and so, like, even, like, liberal people, they're like, that's a great idea. You know, there's no there's no, contest to that.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. And and you started presidential prayer breakfast too. Right?
Taylor Storey:Yes. Yes. Yep. Dwight Eisenhower's, vice president, if I'm remembering right, at least part of the cabinet was a guy named Richard Nixon, and Billy Graham gets, like, really connected with Richard Nixon, like, really likes him. But Billy Graham is act also a democrat.
Taylor Storey:He's from the south, and Eisenhower's republican, but he kind of just decides, like, it doesn't matter that much, you know, whether you're republican or democrat, whatever. But he never changed his, his his, voter registration, so he was Democrat till the day he died actually. Or, you know, I don't know. He never became a Republican. Let's just say that.
Taylor Storey:And he I don't think that he ever officially left the Democrat. He's also good friends with Lyndon Johnson, but every president since Eisenhower Eisenhower to Obama basically had, had Billy Graham as part of his kind of king's court. Like, even Obama, like, had several meetings with Billy Graham and, like, they prayed together and do all kinds of things together. Clinton, of course, as well.
Taylor Storey:So so, yeah, that's that's kind of the story
Taylor Storey:of Billy Graham. But then also, what you don't what I what I didn't realize is that Billy Graham was also the same time as Martin Luther King, and, he was cordial with Martin Luther King. And especially in the beginning, he invited Martin Luther King to to pray at one of his, crusades up in New York City. And Martin Luther King did, and it was a big problem for, the fundamentalist. They didn't like, you know, they Billy Graham wasn't militant enough for for them even though he pretty much shared their theology.
Taylor Storey:He was not aggressive enough. And he got kicked out of Pensacola Bible College way back in the day, Billy Graham. But then where did he finish? I can't remember where he finished. He did do, like, a degree in, like, sociology or anthropology or something like that, but, I don't know that he had any academic training beyond that.
Taylor Storey:It was from a Bible college, if I don't know right.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. And I just actually listened to Fundamentalist, you, because you had you had it recommended, and I was I thought it would be good prep. I I'm pretty sure he was at Bob Jones at one point because, it talks about how Bob Jones wanted I think, wanted to to have him preach, before he got big.
Taylor Storey:Yes. Yes. And maybe that's when I'm it's not Pensacola. It was Bob Jones, I think, that he got kicked out of. I don't know.
Taylor Storey:I but it was so early in in Billy Graham's process that I wouldn't put so much weight on it just that, like, that's what he comes from. In fact, the per the place where he got saved was, like, a big tent revival, with, like, a very racist, preacher. I can't remember that guy's name, but you can look up, like, how did Billy Graham get saved? And it was a big tent revival with, like, extremely racist person that he he later tried to distance himself from, but, I mean, the theology is the same, you know, just like and Billy Graham had, like, some moments where, oh, he, like, put down the rope separating the white and black people, but then he also had moments where he, like, kept the ropes up and went to, like, I think he was in Dallas that he, like, one of the biggest segregationists, like, he spoke at the church and, you know, took pictures with this with this guy. And then when Martin Luther King said, I have a dream that little black children will hold hands and play with little white children, Billy Graham responded with, only when Christ comes again will little black children, little white children play together.
Taylor Storey:And he wrote, like, opinion pieces saying that Martin Luther King needs to put the brakes on. What else did he do? He he did a lot. Basically oh, he he said, oh, yeah. He has his his crusades.
Taylor Storey:Well, I have legal crusades in stadiums. So, you know, he has his protest. Well, I have legal protests in in stadiums.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. It reminds me a little bit of, you know, Falwell's ministers and marchers, where, you know, he's kind of railing against, like, no, we don't we don't do that sort of thing. Like, we we have our church and we, you know, we don't we don't kind of delve into those politics. And then, of course, you know, a little bit later, he does a complete 180. But, yeah, this is definitely an interesting time.
Derek Kreider:I I really like Kevin Kruse's book, One Nation Under God for this time period. I think that was the first evangelical one that I I really looked at, and I was like, oh, man. There's a whole lot more. Like, this is this is gonna uncover a whole lot. And so I've read quite a bit since then.
Derek Kreider:Mhmm. But it it's just, yeah, a not so comfortable period to look at if you're an evangelical.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. No. That was the thing that I kinda I guess I kept uncovering was just that, and especially, like, the Southern Baptists are easy to kind of rail against because they were on the wrong side. And actually they had they've, like, fully admitted it in 2018 that they were on the wrong side of basically every justice movement that has ever occurred. And then so for me, that's like, was there is it possible that you're advocating a Christendom and not Christianity?
Taylor Storey:Is it possible that you're like, this theology that you're advocating is is actually antichrist, and that you've turned Christ into a figure that he's not. You know, that Kierkegaard talks about saying, like, the Christ that says come and follow me is a quite different version, as opposed to and not that, like, liberal Christianity is much better, but, I mean, I I I just I guess I advocate more more of the social gospel things, and it's kind of like about the fruit, I think. You know, Jesus talks about you will know them by their fruit. 1st John says you will is it 1st John? It says you'll they will know we are Christians by our love.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. For I mean, 1st John talks a ton about love. I'm not sure if that's where it is. I know Jesus in the gospel says that they'll know you're my disciples by the way you love one another.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. So that that's the gospel of John then. But yeah. So I like by their fruit, you will know them, and I just don't think the fruit of the Southern Baptist Convention is very good, and I don't think the fruit while there is a lot of charity, there's not that much justice in the in the in the, like, post fundamental evangelical tradition. Like, I would I would eat Charles Finney out of it.
Taylor Storey:Though places like Wheaton College, they try to connect themselves to the Charles Finney second grade awakening kind of a thing. And I think that, that version that's like Mark Knoll. Do you know Mark Knoll? I think he tries to connect himself to that version of evangelical as opposed to the, like, fundamentalist version of evangelical, but they've gotten so mixed up. And it, it's hard to separate that 2nd Great Awakening evangelicalism from evangelicalism that we see today?
Derek Kreider:I think that's, you identified something there that's that's been really difficult for me, because, you know, if something's good, it should it should lead to good results. And I I think what what a lot of people in my group, the, you know, whatever, evangelicals, I think what they often try to do is they look back at all of those bad social decisions, moral decisions, and they they view them as individual instances of, we got that one wrong. We got that one wrong. Whereas I think what Kierkegaard helps me to do is he looks at Christendom and a history of bad decisions as systematic. And and, I mean, just look at today.
Derek Kreider:My group, by and large, you know, if you take the 80 so percent that voted for Trump, and if it if they're representative of this type of kind of thinking, they can't accept something like systemic racism. Like, that just does not compute for them. And so, of course, our history of of bad results isn't systemic. It's just, well, they made they made individual bad decisions.
Taylor Storey:Mhmm. And, yeah, when I looked at the history, I just I saw that excuse over and over and over, and I was just like, I I can't, like, stay in this. And so, like, I I I'm sort of part of the Quakers now. And I just went to a Quaker meeting in San Diego last weekend, and I think I think I told him, like, yeah. Like, I wanna be a part of this because you you all have been on the right side of history for your entire history.
Taylor Storey:And and that's not something I could say about, like, the churches that I grew up in.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I, side note, I actually interviewed a a Quaker historian, in my season on nonviolent action because there's this there's this Quaker guy called named Benjamin Lay who is amazing. Yeah. But she kinda burst my bubble because she was like, well, it wasn't it wasn't always so clear. You know, these Quakers were fighting with those Quakers and this.
Derek Kreider:And I was like, okay. Well, they're still at least really good. You know, they might not be perfect. And and they Yeah. And they more than other people self correct, it seems.
Derek Kreider:It's like, okay, you you had a bunch of people get into power who owned slaves, but you you remedied that. You know, maybe it took you 50 or a 100 years, which is a long time to enslave people, but you had people in your community pushing back against it the whole time. And when you did free your slaves, you compensated them back pay.
Taylor Storey:Wow.
Derek Kreider:I mean, that's that's pretty amazing. So, yeah, I I agree
Taylor Storey:with you.
Derek Kreider:I think I think as a group, they do a good job.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. So, yeah, then I'm interested, like, okay. What's the, like, Quaker theology? Like, this you know, what motivated Benjamin Lay to I think he went around, like, wearing almost no clothes in, like, the middle of winter, and he would stand outside the Quaker meeting, and they'd be like, what's the matter with you? What are you doing?
Taylor Storey:He's like, this is what the slave, what the African people have to deal with in these free United States. You know, he just give these talks while being basically naked in in the cold or some something like this. I I forget, but just a and they were on on the wrong side of the government over and over and over. Like, the government persecuted them. I found out that I had I have a distant relative who was a Quaker living in Virginia, like, Virginia colonies, and he got ran out with the other Quakers because I think they were protesting slavery or something or treatment of Native Americans.
Taylor Storey:And so they had to, like, flee to to Maryland, the southeast part of Maryland, kind of like a swampy area where nobody really wanted to live, from what I understand. But a bunch of Quakers moved there because they were gonna get killed if they stayed in Virginia.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I I mean, if you look at Native American relations with with the Quakers before, I mean, for a while until other people started to come in, Like, they had really peaceful, time with Native Americans. And, you know, I've I've just been amazed because I don't hear anything of Quakers today. I associate them with abolition, but then it's like, well, they kinda died out like the shakers. And but I was listening to a podcast called City of Refuge, which is, you know, just a, like, 10 episode series on, this guy from France, this nonviolent guy from France, who who ended up with his village, like, saving a couple 1,000 Jews by hiding them.
Derek Kreider:And he, at one point in the in the series, I think he's imprisoned or somebody from his community is imprisoned, and they run into, like, a Quaker smuggler who's associated with the Friends Association. And it's like, good Quakers, when the US is keeping Jews out and nobody supposedly knows about the Holocaust, the Quakers know what's going on, and they're over there helping out. Like, holy holy crap. Like
Taylor Storey:Mhmm.
Derek Kreider:I mean, it's it's just amazing what they do.
Taylor Storey:I think it was there's there was some things that I found at the very end of my thesis research that I couldn't follow-up on because I was like, I have to finish and submit this thing. But one of them was Ida b Wells talking about Dwight Moody and how she's like, Dwight Moody is no Quaker. Like, he said she says that, like, pretty, and her being, like, an advocate for African American people in the Reconstruction period, African American herself. Yeah. She's like, Dwight Moody never did anything to help us, but the Quakers did.
Taylor Storey:And so she kind of, like, points out this, like, two versions of Christianity that's I think that I would say, like, African people tend to be, like, aware of it, African Americans, especially like Frederick Douglass, like Ida B. Wells because they were the ones who were getting the short end of the stick from the Christendom people. So while the language was enough for some people, like many white people, it wasn't enough for African American people in the 1800s. So they were able to point out slave only Christianity is not Christianity. Yeah.
Derek Kreider:Well, and that's that's because the the Christianity the slave holding Christianity preserved was really com would have been really comfortable for somebody like me. And so, of course, it of course, it seems good because I'm I'm not on the the receiving end of that stick.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. And then I think about Jesus' statement again. I came to bring good news to the poor. Who was the poor at that time period? It was it was African Americans.
Taylor Storey:It was Native Americans. Were they bringing good news to those people? No. They were bringing bad news. George Whitfield brought bad news to African American people.
Taylor Storey:Like, sorry, no liberation for you. So then that kind of disqualifies the gospel his gospel for me. I mean Well
Derek Kreider:and and Yeah. And, yeah, that's where Kierkegaard, again, is is helpful for me or where I have hope in looking at people like Kierkegaard who are true prophets. And that's because, you know, when you look at all this bad fruit, which seems like a a pretty long series of bad fruit and and unredeemed bad fruit, it's not like, people recognize their mistakes and repent and turn, which would be one thing. But it's Mhmm. I mean, even still today, it with the far right just just refusing refusing to turn.
Derek Kreider:But with Kierkegaard so the question that I end up having is, okay. Well, something's bad here. Is it Christianity? Is it the gospel? And I think Kierke I don't think that is because I think Jesus is so right and so beautiful and and so amazing.
Derek Kreider:Mhmm. So Kierkegaard highlights the thing that I think it is, which is is Christendom. And I don't wanna throw out Christianity. I don't wanna throw out Jesus, but I sure do wanna throw out Christendom.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And and I think no one since Kierkegaard, at least in, like, the, you know, academic philosophy even though Kierkegaard was not academic philosopher, you know, few were in the 19th century. I guess there hasn't been someone respected in the way that he's respected by, like, secular people, I suppose, Since I mean, maybe you could go to, like I would I would plan to go.
Taylor Storey:I I just think that there's, like, kind of a time period. Storyblocks said the same thing also. He's like, Christianity is long since vanished from the Earth. There's, you know, whatever is going around calling itself Christianity is not is not Christianity. And so in Kierkegaard, it's almost like like he him saying Christianity no longer exists is a lot like Nietzsche saying god is dead.
Taylor Storey:You know? Nietzsche also said, only where there are tombs can there be resurrection. So I kinda think that he's, like, allowing the possibility that, like, God could resurrect. But the the Christianity that's being preached around him, he's like, this is not it. He has there is a quote even of of him.
Taylor Storey:I had it I just sent it to somebody, so I'm wondering if it's here. But he says he talks about, like, that, Christianity has so turned from its from its origin, and that it's sanctifying all the things that Christ advocated, or it's sanctifying all the things that the bringer of glad tidings, held beneath him, like empire, like, power and exploitation. He says all of this is a fist in the eye. Oh, and what an eye of the gospel. That's Nietzsche talking.
Taylor Storey:And I was just shocked. That's in the antichrist even, like, the the book The Antichrist.
Derek Kreider:And is is he speaking as himself there, or is he speaking from, like, another perspective?
Taylor Storey:He's speaking as himself, the, this this Nietzsche thing. I'm trying
Derek Kreider:to find Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking of, like, thus both spoke, Zarathustra. You know, he Yeah. He's not speaking from himself.
Derek Kreider:He's kind of, you know, various characters are speaking.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. Yeah. So the quote is that mankind should fall on its knees before the opposite of what was the origin, the meaning, the right of the gospel, that it should have sanctified in the concept church precisely what the bringer of glad tidings regarded as beneath him, behind him. It is a fist in the eye, oh, and what an eye of the gospel. Friedrich Nietzsche.
Taylor Storey:The end of his life. That's, like, one of the last things he wrote.
Derek Kreider:So so do you think do you think people just because, again, I'm I'm like a novice when it comes to philosophy. So it's it's really easy to read the most popular things or to to take quotes and to kind of form your ideas about an individual's thoughts. For me, I I really didn't like Nietzsche because it it seemed like he was against altruism. It seemed like thinking about other people was weakness. Mhmm.
Derek Kreider:And he you know, power was was something that he elevated, and I just that didn't seem like a good thing. I understand why he says Mhmm. God is dead. I I get that, and I don't fault him for that. But the moral ethic that I perceive from Nietzsche just doesn't resonate at all with me.
Derek Kreider:So do you think that's that's a a mischaracterization that a lot of people have of him, and maybe there were more Christian elements underneath? Or, you know, how do you explain that?
Taylor Storey:Yeah. There's, so Nietzsche's sister was a Nazi, and Nietzsche went crazy in 18/90. So he wrote The Antichrist in 18/89, and he lived 10 years of, like, basically not talking to people, and his brain just didn't work anymore. So from 1890 to 1900 when he died, he was, like, in a vegetative state, basically, and his sister kept kept him alive. His sister pulled a whole bunch of his writings together and put them into a book called The Will to Power and gave that to Adolf Hitler.
Taylor Storey:And Hitler loved The Will to Power, which is kind of like a Machiavellian, well, I don't know if he loved it loved it. I don't think it was, like, the most important thing, but he, like, endorsed it and said, this is a this is a good text. It was I mean, I feel like it's it wouldn't be so different from, like, the self help in general, of today, which it's I also think of Abraham and Nietzsche in similar capacities, like the biblical Abraham, in that Abraham left the God of his fathers to advocate something new, and that was definitely what Nietzsche was about. He was about leaving the Christianity that he came from and looking for this Ubermensch, right, this person. And often he would say, like, Christ is the closest thing to Ubermensch that we have, but his tradition was co opted, so he wasn't powerful enough.
Taylor Storey:So then he advocates, you know, for these kind of powerful things, and he has not great things to say about women, not great things to say about Jewish people. So I think that especially if you're, like, aware of that kind of stuff, but the reception of, of Nietzsche as, through the will to power is kind of a creation of his Nazi sister. It's like an editing of his Nazi sister, which, I mean, I don't know that the preface to that book, like, acknowledges this kind of that kind of thing or if it's just printed. I assume the newer copies are, like, acknowledged that way.
Taylor Storey:There's a
Taylor Storey:guy named Walter Kaufman from Princeton, Princeton University who kind of after World War 2, he he put Nietzsche in a different perspective, but not everybody, you know, is aware that their perspective comes more from Nietzsche's sister than from Walter Kaufman. Tillich, Paul Tillich, was really influenced by Nietzsche, but I also think, Nietzsche, he didn't get there. Like, he wanted something new. He didn't get there. So then you have to look at the people around who, like, Tillich, who read Nietzsche as a destroyer of Christianity, of Christendom.
Taylor Storey:But then he's, like, okay. We need, like, a we need we need to keep going because we can't just be will to power individuals. And I don't think Nietzsche the Antichrist is supposed to be the second book in a 7 volume series, but that was the last thing he wrote because he went crazy not long after that. So
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I'll have to rethink about that even if I end up disagreeing with a lot of what Nietzsche, you know, his moral ethic and stuff, or what he what he thinks about Jesus, If he's like Kierkegaard at all in in terms of what he destroys, I I can respect that.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. And I and I would say, like, you know, go with what you like more, you know, which is probably the Kierkegaard thing. Like, I would probably advocate attack upon Christendom rather than the antichrist. But I would say, like, hey, kinda similar, just like Nietzsche doesn't wanna use the Christian language. Kierkegaard does wanna use the Christian language, to rebuild something.
Taylor Storey:But, you know, it's not and they're, like, atheist hate my view of Nietzsche. That's what he was a big reader of Ralph Waldo Emerson though, and so Emerson is kind of like Kierkegaard in that he doesn't abandon theology, I guess. Emerson sort of abandons Christianity, sort of, but not theology. He he's like a he becomes kinda more of a Spinoza. He he always appreciates Christ, of course.
Taylor Storey:But, but Emerson's like a Nietzsche that's, that's, like, a less militant Nietzsche. Less obviously militant anyway, I think. The people at the Harvard Divinity School definitely perceived Emerson as very militant. They banned him from campus for 30 years. So, they perceived him as militant.
Derek Kreider:So I want to, you know, we're we're approaching modernity here to where we are today. Mhmm. And and, there's one other person that I wanna touch on that I think you have some insight into that that maybe helps us to understand Christendom and modernity in evangelicals, and that would be Ronald Reagan. Yeah. Because I know you've you've had some experiences in South and Central America and, especially talking about liberation theology and, some of what was going on down there and assassinations and US involvement and, all that stuff.
Derek Kreider:Wherever you wanna take that and wherever you wanna start, I'd love for you to to maybe talk about that.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. I think probably the first, like, spark for me in that context was I, went down to Nicaragua. I had a friend who bought a little piece of land there, very cheap, right on the beach, and we built a little house. And so I spent a month working on this little house, and then, the 2nd month, I kind of just toured around, and I went to a place called Esteli in the North of Nicaragua, the mountain mountains. And weirdly, everywhere I kept seeing these signs that, that, they were political signs and and it just said Christian, you know, in Spanish.
Taylor Storey:So it was like Christiana, I think, and then socialista Solidaria, like, single words. Christian, socialist, solidarity. Like, political people. And I'm like, time out. You cannot be a Christian and a socialist at the same time.
Taylor Storey:That is they're mutually exclusive. But I'm like, there it is right there. And, I was just weirded out, you know, like my brain, my history, my awareness, my inheritance, intellectual inherited awareness says this can't be. And so I went and stayed with these people in the mountains of Nicaragua, just the kindest people. I was I was had just randomly met a Jewish guy, like, kind of secular Jewish.
Taylor Storey:I don't know that he was, like, really practicing, but he's from Israel And another woman from the Netherlands, so the 3 of us were kind of, like, decided to do some of the tour things together. And, we showed up to these people's house, and they had, like, a very it was so much it was just like the Shire. It was beautiful. Oh, my headphones are gonna die. So we'll change to a different sound.
Taylor Storey:Let me, I'm just
Taylor Storey:Can you hear me?
Derek Kreider:Yeah, it works great.
Taylor Storey:Okay. So staying in this like place like the Shire, and they ask, you know, where are you from? And I'm like, Oh, I'm from from California from the US. And they're like, oh, like so many people would be like, they would say, oh, we know that things have changed since Ronald Reagan. Like, so we're happy that you're here.
Taylor Storey:You know? And I was kinda like, what? We know that, you know, the US is not everybody is like Ronald Reagan in the US, so we're happy that you're here. And I was kinda like, where did this come from? Like, what the heck?
Taylor Storey:And, and so I got to talking to them and realized that these people in the mountains were, like, literally Christian socialists. And they talked about both aspects of that perspective for them. And he's like he's like, yeah. We're, you know, we're socialist. Like, I I run the co op here.
Taylor Storey:The farms, we take our food to the co op, and then and it gets distributed amongst the community. And, you know, so obvious I mean, I'm a socialist and that so he's like, and that's why, like, Ronald Reagan was paying the contras to come in here and terrorize us for the whole decade of the eighties. And I was like, what? I never heard that. And then, they had I mean, they were so fascinated by my companion, the the the Jewish guy that I was with.
Derek Kreider:They're like, oh my goodness. You're from Israel? The land of the Bible?
Taylor Storey:Like, tell us everything about about this. So, like, for like 3 nights, every dinner, they were just they were so thrilled to hear about the land of the Bible from from this guy. And he would just talk about, yeah, yeah, you know, like this area, Galilee region and like down in Jerusalem. And this is where, like, Isaiah would have lived and this is where, like, Amos was and, you know, the Torah this and the Torah that. And they were enthralled by this guy.
Taylor Storey:So it was like very clear
Taylor Storey:to me that their Christianity was not manufactured. And then they're like socialism. It was really for them, it was all about about cooperative living. And they lived in this mountainous region And their their place was it was not like a poverty kind of situation, like Mexico or something that I've been in before. It was though they only had a limited amount of electricity, but it was very well taken care of.
Taylor Storey:And they were like, oh, yeah, like, all my all my children are they have PhDs in, like, agriculture, and they live like Costa Rica or other parts of Nicaragua. And, and he's like, but, yeah, of course. Like, you know, Ronald Reagan was after me in the in the eighties. Not like, you know, there was no personal thing, but he's like, we had to live in the forest. And then he showed me.
Taylor Storey:He's like, yeah, I was shot here in the arm by one of the Contras. And we basically lived in the forest. We would come back here for time periods, but we never knew when the Contras were going to come and attack us. Basically, right wing fascists from Honduras were paid by the Reagan administration and the Carter administration. And before that, because the US was was on the wrong side of this thing.
Taylor Storey:They liked the dictator samosa and, and the socialist, basically Christian socialist, liberate, liberation theologians, advocated against the the fascist dictators like Somoza throughout all of Latin America. But, but, yeah, like the big story is like this is this Catholic priest named Oscar Romero. He's probably like the most famous of the liberation theologians in this context anyways. And he was in El Salvador advocating against the US supported fascism. And the US liked it because it was kind of like Saudi Arabia.
Taylor Storey:Like, we picked a few families to make very wealthy, and then they would provide us with resources cheap and in the way we wanted it. So in in Latin America, it was like a lot of fruit. It was, a lot of beef. It was,
Taylor Storey:it was just really cheap for us.
Taylor Storey:But we made a few people very wealthy, like the Samozas. And the Samozas kept Nicaragua in this, like, basically lord and serf, arrangement. But we liked that because it was it was really cheap for us. And, the liberation theologians started to see that and they were like, this is really problematic, the way that people are being treated by the samosas. And so we're actually gonna advocate for the people against the samosas, and the US didn't like that.
Taylor Storey:So there were many different, groups of people. Like, this particular one is called the Atlakatl Battalion, and they went to North Carolina to get trained. The first thing that they did when they got back from North Carolina is they went to Oscar Romero's church and shot and killed him.
Derek Kreider:So it's not it's not like, you know, the US are necessarily I mean, we don't know, but the US isn't necessarily saying, okay, hey, you send us a hit squad. We'll train them. But we know the types of people that they're sending us, and we know what they're gonna do with the with what we train them to do.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. And I I read into it more because obviously I'm like, wow. Reagan is like the best president of the 20th century as far as, like, the people I know are concerned. And, and so I was very confused, to find out about this and then to find out that basically the way we think of Hitler is the way they think of Reagan because of what he did in Latin America. And I was like, this was again, like, well, I thought I was, you know, against I thought it was like small government or I thought it was a Christian, but I thought Reagan was a Christian.
Taylor Storey:I thought like, but then come to find out that, like, what he did in Latin America in particular was was really horrific. And he did it even totally illegally. Like, I think that it was something with the money. Like, he couldn't
Derek Kreider:The Iran contra.
Taylor Storey:Yeah.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. Iran contra. So Iran, he sold weapons to Iran. And then the money went directly to the Contras, which was in Honduras to fund terrorizing the Nicaraguans.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. And this also gets yeah. This also gets into, you know, there was the there's the conspiracy that involved the CIA allowing crack to to continue so they could get money to funnel to the Contras because they couldn't obtain that money through the government anymore. And so the crack epidemic was at least in part a result of of CIA, maybe not conspiring with drug dealers, but at least looking the other way. Mhmm.
Taylor Storey:And like I first heard Noam Chomsky talk about it concisely, and he just said liberation theology was an attempt to bring the gospels back into Christianity. So, like, you know, we might say that it's a Kierkegaardian thing again, like trying to reintroduce Christianity to Christendom. That's what liberation theology was. But he's like, but you can't have that. Christianity, as it was, as it has been known in the West, is a is the is the theology of the wealth of the wealthy.
Taylor Storey:It was the theology of Ronald Reagan, the theology of Cyrus McCormick and Donald Trump. It's not the theology of the poor. Like, you can't, like, advocate for the slaves. You can't advocate for the the the people being enslaved in Nicaragua and then in the eighties. So he's like, so, of course, we crushed it.
Taylor Storey:Like, we violently repressed it. And, you know, this was just wild because I was thinking, oh, my gosh, the government is suppressing Christianity. But I have a I have been following Christendom. I've not been following Christianity. So I'm getting it.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. I'm getting it from Christendom. I'm not getting it from Christianity.
Derek Kreider:Well, yeah. And it's like our government oh, a lot of, evangelicals have this martyrdom complex, this persecution complex. And it's like when you study history, you learn that oh, it's it's your government, like our government, that has actually been prosecuting Christians just out there to secure my Christendom, like my version of Christianity and my comfort.
Taylor Storey:Mhmm. But also, like, you know, we're worried about people like the government coming into my home and shooting me or something. You know, like what the government's gonna come in here and take my kids from me. Guess what's been happening to black people for, like, forever? You know?
Taylor Storey:Like, Breonna Taylor was just, like, a few years ago. The government, a police officer came in there and shot her, killed her, and then said, oh, sorry. Like, wrong wrong apartment. You know. So, like and, like or Philando Castile, you know, like, the government, he said, I have a gun in my apart in my in my glove box, and then the guy pulled out and killed Philando Castile for for no reason other than the police officer was scared or something.
Taylor Storey:But this is So, like, the government is coming and killing people. It's just not coming and killing white people. Or what's the Dylan Roof went to, African Methodist Episcopal Church in, what, in North Carolina, I think. Dylann Roof. He shot up a prayer meeting.
Taylor Storey:But we don't think of that as, like, Christian persecution. But, like, I never how come I didn't hear about that, Christian persecution? A guy came in and shot up a church and but it's not a big deal. Or, like, in the 19 sixties, the Birmingham I think it was Baptist, Birmingham Baptist. It was it was American Baptist.
Taylor Storey:It was black people. And white Christians went and blew up a church killing 4 little girls. Was it Birmingham? Montgomery? I forget.
Taylor Storey:I think it was Birmingham.
Derek Kreider:I I think yeah. I don't remember exactly.
Taylor Storey:During Sunday school, they killed 4 little girls, and that's not considered like Christian persecution. How come I never heard about that in Voice of the Martyrs? You know?
Derek Kreider:Yeah. It reminds me of, Cone James Cone's Cross and the Lynching Tree, which is a really profound book, but I think that that hits at exactly what you're talking about.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. So all the things that I was, like, concerned the government might come and do, they've been doing for the history of the United States.
Derek Kreider:Well and that's internally, but the people that you're talking to in Nicaragua, your government was going and doing that overseas or at least supporting that. Mhmm.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. I'm trying to think well, I mean, we did do, like, a direct intervention in Chile, I think, where there was a democratically elected socialist leader and we went in and and took him out. Was it it was, Salvador Allende.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. And then Pinochet.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. We installed the right wing person. What was it? Augusto Pinochet, I think.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. Well and, I mean, Nicaragua was also they were invaded in, like, 1910 or something, I believe. So there's there's US domination. I think we were in country for, like, 20 years. Same time we were in country, Haiti.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. We were in Haiti from, like, 1915 to 1934 or something. So we're in all of these countries. And yeah.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. And it's it's when you read into it, it's it's indefensible. And it was largely the Christians, the quote, unquote Christians, the Ronald Reagans. I mean but also Ronald Reagan, I, you know, he was never I don't know. Was he actually a Christian?
Taylor Storey:I I think that, like, now that I've read about him, I don't know that he he was a movie star.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. He just I think he catered to Christians and, you know, used the the right lingo and stuff.
Taylor Storey:He's he started his campaign at a place it was it was this really random place in the south.
Derek Kreider:Philadelphia? No.
Taylor Storey:It wasn't Philadelphia. I'm trying to think.
Taylor Storey:But it was a place where they the they this community, like, lynched people. And then the federal government came in and said, we're gonna prosecute this because the local police wouldn't do it. And and then that was a big, like, states rights thing because they're like, no, no, no. You can't. The federal government can't come in here and, like, tell tell us what to do.
Taylor Storey:And so the states. Right. So then Ronald Reagan started this. I want to say and it might have been like at one of his campaigns or something, but I was like the overt racism of this. Reagan states rights
Taylor Storey:Oh, speech?
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I'm playing up.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. And the show but county. It's it is so weird to choose the show but county. But it was it was the site of the 1964 murders of Cheney, good Goodman and Schwerner, which was like an prosecuted racial thing. And so Reagan went there to say, like, I'm an advocate of states' rights.
Taylor Storey:And it's like, it's just pure, pure racism, and, like, of the worst kind. And it's not even it's like a place that you wouldn't go. It's a small town. It's not, like, it would make sense to me if it was, like, Los Angeles or something like that, you know, or, like, a big a big city where there's a lot of support. But it's it's it was to signal to the racists of of the South, especially because they I think they knew what Neshoba County was about.
Taylor Storey:But, but other people, you know, but the we chose we chose not to. And I think about that a lot with regards to the dominant Christianity in the United States, that it chooses ignorance very often. Like, that's what the that's what the plain reading of scripture of Dwight Moody was about. He didn't want the social, historical or literary perspective. He wanted his own interpretation, which is so wild because, you know, we heard it all the time that, like, this is objective.
Taylor Storey:And liberals are just they you know, the Bible can mean whatever they want it to mean. And I'm like, now that I've looked through history, I'm like, we are describing ourselves. We are the ones who read this and made it into whatever we wanted it to be. Yeah.
Taylor Storey:We are the
Taylor Storey:ones in cancel culture, you know.
Taylor Storey:I think
Derek Kreider:that's a good observation that that we so often describe ourselves. You know, it it clicked for me there where you say that, you know, things are objective, and then you realize, well, yeah, your your interpretation is supposedly objective. Or, for me, in regard to the big one for me was in the 2016 election. I had been on a high horse against moral relativism. Like, moral relativism just doesn't make any sense.
Derek Kreider:And then 2016 happens, and I'm like, oh my gosh. All of you are moral relativists. Yeah. And I'm like, I was looking for it out there, and and I was blindsided by it in my own community. But, yeah, cancel culture.
Derek Kreider:You you look at all of the things, that that we are can't that that the evangelicals are canceling. It's insane. And, yeah, we've we've done that forever, being cancel culture. We describe ourselves, and we just don't see it. Like, I think you you said we choose ignorance.
Derek Kreider:I wouldn't say that we don't see it. I think we choose
Taylor Storey:it. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's like there are prophets amongst us, you know, like like a Martin Luther King. I think he was saying some very relevant things about race, and and then he was saying some very relevant things about poverty and things about the Vietnam War. And people did not want to hear it because it you know, it's so like Daniel Barragan, a radical Catholic priest said.
Taylor Storey:He said, the poor tell us who we are. Like, the Nicaraguan people, they tell us who we are. The African American slave tells us who we are, and the prophets tell us who we can be, you know, like a Frederick Douglass, like a Kierkegaard, like a they tell us who we can be. So we hide the poor and we kill the prophets over and over again. We do this over and over again, which is hard for me now.
Taylor Storey:This is, like, where I'm personally at. I think about all the time. That's how do I advocate this path that everybody wants to hide, that everybody wants to kill? Like people do not how do you advocate for people who don't have health care and or people who grew up in a place where they weren't able to, like, be a part of society, really, you know, they didn't get the education they needed to have a good job, are not networked well enough to have a good job, grew up. How do you advocate for that?
Taylor Storey:Because I think it kind of is it's like a it's a failing project in a way. Cornell West often says, studying philosophy is really about learning how to die daily, which is also like a Christian thing. I think, you know, Jesus talks about the taking of your cross and dying or Romans 12 being a living sacrifice, a thing that dies over and over. Is that what he's I mean and I kinda think it's about, like, learning that we're going to fail over and over and over before we succeed. There were a lot of proto Martin Luther Kings.
Taylor Storey:And Martin Luther King himself was killed. I think Kierkegaard is one of these one of these proto people. And he he lived a life that was not glamorous. It looked I mean, nobody read his stuff. He didn't have he didn't have, like, he was rediscovered later.
Taylor Storey:You know, he died in obscurity. But that's hard. And it's hard to, like, also be, like, chipper and happy and optimist and, like, hey. Wanna, you know, be a part of this, like, justice movement? But it's also Paul.
Taylor Storey:Paul, he did this I heard this funny thing about Saint Paul, who, Paul of the New Testament, that he's like, yeah, I had a successful career. You know, I was, I was involved in, like, the the higher levels of Jewish thought. And, and then I met this guy Jesus on the road one day. I went blind for 3 days. And then, you know, I was about to go kill Christians, but then I decided, to be one of them.
Taylor Storey:And so now, I've been subjected to the lash, you know, the the 40 lashes minus 1. I got shipwrecked. People want me dead. I don't have, you know, money anymore. And you too can have the same Jesus if you if you want.
Taylor Storey:Like, it's not a glamorous thing. It's not Jesus is not speaking from glory like Kierkegaard said. He's not he's not part of the big wealthy church saying come and follow me. He's he's basically the, you know, the homeless ex carpenter, washed up rabbi saying come and follow me. I don't have a place, you know, this foxes have holes and birds have their nests, but this Son of Man has no place to lay his head.
Taylor Storey:That's a Jesus thing, you know. And so it's it just makes it hard, you know. So that's the question I'm asking right now is like, how do you actually advocate this thing that people don't want? And Christian people, maybe even the most, don't want. They They want the Christendom.
Taylor Storey:They don't want the the Christ.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I think that's where, you know, Kierkegaard, whatever his ideal was, he had something something that he latched onto that was able to to drive him. And for me, that's I mean, yeah, Jesus, but I'm trying to think something more more tangible that that people who aren't Christians might understand. I guess, for me, when I see the where this other morality leads, like, where consequentialism leads I mean, this is why I wanted to do this season on propaganda and conspiracy because I recognize that I was propagandized and everybody around me was propagandized in my evangelical circles. I'm still propagandized.
Derek Kreider:Just hopefully, I'm I'm becoming more aware of it and able to to fight it a little bit better. But when you start just digging in historically, like, far back, but also even you don't even need to go far back. You can just go, like you said, back to Ronald Reagan. You can go back 5 years. And, just recognizing all of the death and destruction and injustice and oppression, that that that consequentialism and and other moral ethics lead to for other people, even if not yourself, is just is just horrendous.
Derek Kreider:And and I think you need that historical look because, like you said, okay, Kierkegaard died in obscurity. He he could have come to the end of his life and said, everything I did was worthless. Right? By consequentialist standards, he's a loser, he misses out. I think the the your Nietzsche quote about, you know, where there are tombs, there are resurrections.
Derek Kreider:I think that's what a dying to self, I kind of I kind of view is doing, where it's maybe I die in obscurity. But if what I have to say is good and valuable and God can use that, then He will use that. My job is to hold on to the ideal and pursue that and let God let God take control of that. Because you look at consequentialists like, you know, Whitfield. Okay.
Derek Kreider:We we've got evangelicals who are still upholding him, but now we've got a lot of people who are saying, no, down down with Whitfield. Like, we've got plenty of other good people that we can go to, but his legacy isn't gonna last because of the moral compromises that he made. Whereas somebody like Kierkegaard who dies in obscurity is gonna be remembered. And I don't know if that makes sense.
Taylor Storey:We I was just saying we don't remember the Roman Empire. We remember Jesus. You know, Jesus story is much better than the Roman Empire Empire story. And it's the tradition that I want to be a part of. I think of that song all the time.
Taylor Storey:When the saints go marching in, oh, Lord, I want to be in the number when the saints go marching in. So I do want to be on that right side of history. I do want to, be part of the prophetic tradition, you know. But it's it's hard, you know. And yeah.
Taylor Storey:It's just it's just hard and it's and it's but that's also why, you know, the prophets like, Elijah, you know, after his big moment, the against the prophets of Baal, he's, like, super depressed and wants to die. You know? Like, he he won, but kind of, like, at at what cost? Like, social isolation and
Derek Kreider:Yeah. Because that's that's when he goes and hides in the rock. Right?
Taylor Storey:Mhmm. Yeah.
Derek Kreider:I only found that out a couple of years ago. I was like, wait, this is after that? And it it blew my mind because yeah, he should have been coming into glory at that point.
Taylor Storey:Mhmm. But, yeah, he wasn't. And then that's when, like, you know, the the the tornado came, but, you know, God was not in tornado. The this came, but God was not in that. And then, like, a still small voice spoke to him and God was in that, like, still small voice.
Taylor Storey:And I think it told him take a nap or something like that, doesn't it? Like, just have some food and, like, rest. It's cool. Which is a message, you know, I think for a lot of us that it's a marathon, not a sprint, maybe. Too.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I got, I guess, one more one more question here for you, and then you can kind of round round things out as you as you want to. I guess that would be alright. We've gone all the way up to to Ronald Reagan and and liberation theology and all that stuff. But it's been 40 years plus since Reagan.
Derek Kreider:Mhmm. And we're at an interesting place in the United States with in regard to evangelical Christianity, Christendom. Yeah. It looks like lots of things are happening on the world stage. It looks like the US is, not doing so hot, and it looks like I guess I I don't know what's going on in the states, but it seems like conservative Christians are gonna back Trump again.
Derek Kreider:Is that correct?
Taylor Storey:I haven't been paying that much attention, but I think so. Yeah.
Derek Kreider:Alright. So so talk about the modern state of Christendom and any closing thoughts you might have.
Taylor Storey:Well, you know, like you, I think the first time I was able to vote was for Bush 2, Bush Junior, and I did vote for Bush Junior. I was, you know, actually, I think I was like, a week too young to vote for him in in 2004. But I oh, actually, no. I voted for Ron Paul, actually. So, hey, yo.
Taylor Storey:In 2008, I think that was my first vote. I voted for Ron Paul, I think. But but Bush, I mean, we think about his the what he did in Iraq. And and then what Obama did in bailing out the banks in the 2008 crisis, which was I mean, I don't know how we can call Obama anything near the left because he he did that right wing move. But to me, it's like we could have invested in affordable housing rather than the Iraq war.
Taylor Storey:But we spent 1,000,000,000,000 on the Iraq war. And again, instead of bailing out the banks, we could have invested again. I mean, I think housing is like probably one of the most important things. We could have invested in infrastructure, but we didn't. We decided to give the money straight to the banks and they do whatever the heck they want with it.
Taylor Storey:And I think in many ways, that kind of screwed up our generation. And Bush was certainly the choice of of evangelicals. I don't think I heard there was nobody in my circles that was advocating anything but Bush. And then, yeah, I mean, 81% voting for Trump and continuing the the anti Christian things of of Reagan. And so I don't know, like, I don't have very much.
Taylor Storey:But I also think that there was a big shift with our generation. I think many of us came of age, you know, in that 2010, 2011, 2012. And I think we we started to see that there is a very problematic nature to the ignorance of evangelicalism of our parents generation. So we are making it better. But the thing is, is that like, slave holding is profitable.
Taylor Storey:And Reagan's, actions were very profitable. So, of course, people love them, profitable for a certain group of people. And they're taking that wealth and they're building castles, fortresses and things. But this and they're blowing up Iraq. You know, they're blowing up places all over the world.
Taylor Storey:Anything that contests them, they're just blowing it up. So it's just a bummer because I think for our generation, it kind of sucks that that's the way that they're using their wealth is to fortify against awareness, you know, fortify against learning about their social sins. And they're spending it on more and more interesting ways to have fun, I guess. I don't know. But, yeah.
Taylor Storey:So it makes sense, Trump and stuff. I mean, Trump Trump to me is very much like a Cyrus McCormack Jr. So, like, it makes sense that Franklin Graham is a lot like the Dwight Moody. And then and then Trump is a lot like the Cyrus and McCormick Jr. So to me, it is.
Taylor Storey:It's the McCormick, Moody gospel again. And it's just it's a long tradition. It is profitable for a certain group of people. I don't think it's good for the world, but, it's it's it is profitable for them. And actually, Blaise Pascal, I think about this quote all the time.
Taylor Storey:Unable to fortify justice, we justify force. Justice and force. Justice and power. You know, unable to power justice, we justify power. Or we say profit, you know, unable to give money to give profit to justice, we justify profit.
Taylor Storey:And so I think we have a hard time understanding what is power and what is justice. And if power just uses the language of justice or like says we give 1% to the planet, then we're like, cool, great, profit and justice, but it's not. George Whitfield, you know, unable to build his orphanage in a just way, he decided to build his orphanage in an unjust way. And we say, Hey, I'm supporting an orphanage, but you're doing it unjustly. And and and isn't justice actually just about, like, social sustainability even?
Taylor Storey:Like, I think the prophets are saying your profit seeking motives are unsustainable. Like, your kids are gonna find out that you got your wealth by terrorizing Nicaraguans, and there is somehow a still small voice that we hear, like the rocks cry out. If no one will speak like Jesus, if no one will speak like the prophet, even the rocks will cry out. Like, we will find out. The blood of Abel cries out from the ground.
Taylor Storey:Remember that line? Like, Cain kills Abel and then God says, where is your brother Abel? And Cain says, I am not am I my brother's keeper? Like, am I I don't know where he is. Meanwhile, Cain killed him, of course.
Taylor Storey:And then God says, the blood of your brother Abel cries out from the ground. And so I think right now, it's the blood of the Native Americans is crying out from the ground. The blood of African Americans is crying from the crying out from the ground. The blood of women is crying out from the ground. The blood of just poor people in general, is crying out from the ground.
Taylor Storey:And our parents' generation and evangelicalism in general does not want to hear it.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. I think I think, our generation I think in our lifetime, that's gonna come back on us. It just seems like things are are kind of going that way. And, you know, I'm I'm not, into predicting eschatology or anything. But, you know, one of the things that I did think was interesting, and it clicked for me when with the 16/19 project, I'm like, wait, that's 400 years, 2019.
Derek Kreider:And, you know, biblically speaking, that that 400 years Egypt, all that kind of stuff, I'm like, okay. And things go in forties and, you know, 40 times or this times 10. So it's 400 is a magic number in the bible when a lot of things kinda come back on you. And I was like, well, that's that's about when things started to really take a turn in our society. Mhmm.
Derek Kreider:It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Taylor Storey:Yeah. For me, 2012 was the year that I was like, I can't really be a part of this anymore. And it was, it was right about the same time, like, the Mayan calendar said the world was going to end. And so it was the world is or,
Taylor Storey:you know, they stopped predict I don't know what
Taylor Storey:it was, but it was, like, December 2012 is, like, when the Mayan calendar predicted, like, the end of the world. And now I see, like, the prophet, the eschatology thing as not so much like the end of the world, but the end of kind of an age or the end of an empire or something like that. And so for me, yeah, like, a particular age or dominant system died in 2012. And I hope, you know, something is being reborn. I think something is being reborn.
Taylor Storey:Something is resurrecting. But it's it's a it's a hard process. It's not like the changing of things is not easy. So
Derek Kreider:I guess the for you and something for me to remember too is that, you know, assuming that we are at least in some ways trying to be true prophets and and avoiding the false prophet route, It is encouraging when you look at the Bible that the the or as as Niebuhr said, you know, the wilderness prophets, they do have a harder time, but they also tend to be smaller in number and things don't seem to go too well for them. And so I I think, you know, Jesus promised that those who followed him would would bear cross, and I think that's generally indicative of of going the the right route. So, hopefully, we do find ourselves in that number. The number from your song, but also the number of the the minority true prophets. Mhmm.
Taylor Storey:And there is something, like, kind of, I don't know, I like the integrity, you know, feels good. Like I have made the hard decision, at least in this sense, you know. I've made, I think the right decision, even though it's been sort of hard and hard for me, you know, like, it's not that it's like, I live in San Diego, like the weather is perfect. You know, I play soccer on Saturdays and surf on Sundays. You know, I get to eat the best Mexican food in the world.
Taylor Storey:Sorry, Mexico. I don't know. Yeah. So there's good stuff too. There's a lot of good stuff, and that's what I'm trying to remember.
Taylor Storey:Alright. Well, I
Derek Kreider:think that's, I mean, that's all the line of questioning that I have for you unless there's anything that you wanna add that you forgot or think would be a good addition.
Taylor Storey:No. I think, yeah. Yeah. I think we said we said we said a lot. We said a lot.
Taylor Storey:It was we're about over 2 and a half hours.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. Almost 3. Yeah.
Taylor Storey:So it's
Taylor Storey:good for me.
Derek Kreider:Yeah. Well, thanks for taking time out of your day to do that.
Taylor Storey:No problem. No problem. Thank you so much.
Derek Kreider:That's all for now. So peace, and because I'm a pacifist, when I say it, I mean
Taylor Storey:it.
Derek Kreider:This podcast is a part of the Kingdom Outpost network. Please check out the links below to find other great podcasts and content related to nonviolence and Kingdom Living.
