In today's episode, I get to speak with Hana Nation of the China Partnership. We get to talk about Wang Yi and about the Chinese house church. We discuss government, non violence, suffering, and what the American church can learn from the Chinese house church. For those of you who may be interested in particular topics, you can go ahead and see the timestamps in the in the show notes and jump to whatever portion you're interested in. This episode is meant to complement a number of the other episodes that we've done.

We, highlighted one of Wang Yi's works earlier in the season, And we've also talked about questioning whether nonviolent resistance for as as good as it is in comparison to war and doing violence to other people, whether that should be our goal as Christians to change government. So this is a part of that larger conversation and something that would probably be helpful to to hear the rest of those works, which I will also link in the show notes. Also make sure to check the show notes for links to some of the things that Hannah and I think are relevant for this discussion, and some of the the articles that she mentioned, particularly the cross and the landfill, and when the police come knocking. But there's also one that Hannah forgot to plug, and wanted me to make sure that I plug that right now, and that is The Church in the Wilderness. So please make sure you check out the resources in the show notes below.

Without further ado, here is our conversation with Hannah Nation. So I I reached out to you because, I saw Jeff Kyle at the, at the Gospel Coalition, and Jeff and I go back a ways. I mean, it we haven't really spent that much time together recently be since his move to New York, but just really have always liked him and and he's such a genuine guy. And when I was talking with him about, you know, some of the things that I was I was doing for my podcast and and such, he told me about about Wang Yi. And so I I ended up kind of searching him and and going to the the China Partnership site, and I I found his my declaration of faithful disobedience.

And it fit so well with, what I was kind of thinking through and struggling with, in regard to to nonviolence and politics and and action. So I I really wanted to include that in the podcast, so I just did a few weeks ago, and you were gracious enough to to let me reproduce that. So thank you. And then you also you had the added there's the added bonus of you offered to do an interview, which was, I mean, just amazing. So thank you so much for for agreeing to do that.

Before we get into, like, the specifics of of the interview, I would like for you to to introduce yourself and tell everyone who you are. And then also, I know that you have a a book coming out, and I'd, you know, go ahead and plug that and and tell about that as well.

Yeah. Well, I'm Hannah Nation. I've served the church in China for a long time now. So it's been probably about fifteen years since I first got involved. And I currently am involved with two different projects, you can say.

I'm the content director for an organization called China Partnership. And CP works to basically resource and support a bunch of house church pastors across China. And the newer thing I'm involved with, it's just launching this year, so it's pretty exciting. It's called the Center for House Church Theology. And basically, vision with the center is to help bring the richness and the depths of the theological wisdom coming out of China to the global church.

And I think all of my work for the last five to seven years has been focused on basically this idea that Chinese house church pastors are writing and preaching and theologizing in China's urban context, and the time is really right to try to share that with the rest of the world to share the unique and special ways that they are engaging Scripture and knowing and loving Christ and sharing that with the rest of us who may not read Chinese or be able to easily access and know where to go to get their content. So yeah, we've got a lot of different stuff, a lot of content that is basically coming out of China and going to the rest of the world at this point, I feel like we're just at the beginning of this work. And in the coming years, there's just going to be more and more that we're able to bring out of China. We have two books, I have two books that I've worked on for the last year. So not just one, two.

And yeah, the first one is, it's a collection of sermons preached by house church pastors throughout the year of the pandemic. So it's basically a collection of COVID-nineteen sermons on things like death and suffering and our hope in heaven and what these mean for this year. It's basically a bunch of sermons that we've translated. And that book will be coming out next year with Lexham Press. And I really love that book.

It's a very contemplative book. I feel like the preaching that has been taking place in China for the last year is a lot more willing to engage with and wrestle with just the darkness of the last year. And it's very hopeful at the same time too, though. You know, it's very, the focus is razor sharp on, you know, Christ shines brightly and when the world is very dark. So that's the first book.

And the second book, which is very relevant to our conversation today, I've been working on a book. It's a collection of Wang Yi's writings. And the story behind that book is he put together a collection of his own writings, and then writings from a couple of other pretty prominent and important house church pastors up in Beijing. Wang Yi is in Chengdu, which is in the Southwest of China. He put together a collection of writings from these different pastors several years ago, over five years ago, and he called it our house church manifesto.

And his church Early Reign self published this book. That book is something that we have basically had access to. It's in the public domain. And I have been able to basically add to it significantly, the writings that he published leading up to his arrest. And so it's basically a lengthy and very chewy collection of his theology.

And it's, you know, basically his manifesto before his arrest. So that is going to be coming out in also next year, most likely with InterVarsity Academics. So yeah, we're really excited. I think we're looking at having at least one book come out probably every year for the foreseeable future. So we're excited to be working on this.

Yeah. That's awesome. I'm looking forward to it. So definitely let us know when it comes out so that that I can I can post it?

Yeah. I will. For sure.

And also, thank you. I I realized that I was saying Wong is it Wang Yi?

Wang Yi. Yeah. And so in in China, the family name comes first. So his family name is Wong and his given name is Izzy. So

Okay. Well, perfect. Thank you. So let me kind of explain where where we are in in the season that I'm planning on on dropping this into to kind of give you some context for for what I'm gonna be asking and and where I'm coming from, and then we'll get right into questions and and start grilling you.

Mhmm.

So we we are in the middle of a season on nonviolent action. This podcast is is largely about nonviolence, and this season in particular is about the way that that nonviolence has been used throughout history, to, you know, to change governments or to get rights or just to to fight back against oppression. And, you know, I'm interested in in Wang Yi for for two reasons, mainly. One at least in regard to this podcast. So the big question that we've asked in this season is whether nonviolent action directed at government should be a Christian agenda.

You know, first Peter is one of the big ones that we've questioned where there are slaves, spouses in difficult marriages, those under oppressive rule. Also, we see that in Romans 13, you know, submits to the government. And, Paul talks about remaining in your position and and Peter as well. And it doesn't seem like the the trend of the New Testament is that we are to seek giving our rights. It's not a bad thing, right, if if a slave can be free, be free, but rights aren't really our pursuit.

And that's foreign to me as an American because rights are the pursuit of of life to to me as an American. But for the New Testament church, it seemed like individual rights and comfort wasn't wasn't the the priority, but rather bearing the testimony of Jesus. And Wang Yi's article, it it seemed to show him saying that in his his view, that his goal in disobedience isn't to change government, and that's gonna be one of the things that I want to hit on. The other thing that I want to get to is whether the church in China, and particularly Wang Yi, are are nonviolent, because that's not something that that I could really sift out from his work. Now here in The States, we're we're very much about our rights and and especially our rights in regard to self defense.

Like, my my group, conservative Christians, we're all about second amendment and self defense and and that kind of stuff. And I'd love to know if there are any conversations with Wang Yi or or anybody around him as to what self defense looks like or or whether that's something they embrace at all or or not. So that's kind of the context for for what I'm gonna be asking.

Yeah. Alright. So All good questions.

Yeah. And and obviously, answer to the best of your ability because, yeah, I understand that you're not in direct conversation with with Wang Yi, you know, on a daily basis or mean, I don't even know if at all. So the best you can.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I and to be clear, yeah, I am not in direct conversation with Fangy.

I don't have a prior relationship or friendship with him. I have met him briefly, and I've met his wife, but really just in in passing. So my I can share my understanding of his thought based on having worked with his his material and his written stuff. But, yeah, it's probably good to be clear that I am doing my best to represent him, but I am not him. I I am sharing my analysis and my understanding of what he's talking about.

Okay. Well, we'll take it, and it'll be amazing. So so first first question, because I know very little about Wang Yi, and and I imagine that a lot of people listening don't know anything at all. So can you just fill us in who is he, and why is he someone that that the world, at least the Christian world, is talking about right now?

Yeah. For sure. So Wang Yi is a pastor of one of the larger house churches in China. I will say a quick note on what the house church in China is, since I think there's still quite a lot of confusion for those who aren't directly involved in China on what exactly it means when we say a house church. So especially for the last decade or two, when we've talked about house church, we're really not necessarily talking about a group of people meeting in a private home kind of in a, you know, hidden secretive way.

You know, Wang Yi's church, it's called Early Rain Covenant Church. I'll just call it Early Rain. Early Rain had, you know, six to 800 members before it was disbanded. And they had a very large, basically commercial space that they had turned into a church building, they basically had several floors of a business, like commercial building. So, you know, I think often, we hear about house churches in China, we kind of still think about these very small little, little hidden family churches.

And that really, you there are still those. But for the last ten to twenty years, house churches were allowed to grow quite large, and some of them became quite public. Basically, in 2018, new religious regulations were put into place though, and we are currently seeing another shift in the house church. And many of those large house churches are currently breaking down back into smaller groups. So there are still house churches that will meet in rented space such as like hotel build you know, hotel lobbies or hotel rooms or commercial spaces.

But there is generally because of increased pressure in the last couple of years, there is a return to more of the small group, small meeting model that would have been more common in the last century, you could say. Wang Yi, he is a really fascinating guy. He's a very brilliant guy. He was human rights lawyer before he became a Christian. And he was kind of already pegged as a, you know, who's who type person within Chinese intellectuals, and especially in the, you know, human rights lawyer legal world.

He became a Christian in the early 2000s. And pretty immediately after he became a Christian, he got involved in ministry and in pastoring. He started helped to start this church, started this church early reign, and it grew very quickly as do many churches in China. And I think especially because of his background in law, Wang Yi just has he has a very sharp mind. I mean, he's a very sharp thinker.

And he really pretty quickly started to engage just a lot of questions regarding the role of the church within society. I think in a lot of ways, you could say church state theology. However, I think, especially after a lot of conversations I've had with those who do know Wang Yi personally, I think to kind of relegate his theology and his writings simply to church state is really cutting or selling it short. He it he's thinking a lot more broadly than just the state. He's really thinking about society broadly.

He's thinking about the city. He's thinking about eschatology. He's a very eschatological thinker. And all of these things really have come together to form a lot of his responses to the government and especially to the new restrictions that were put into place in 2018. He's I I will say he is he is not without critique within the house church.

So he can be a controversial figure within the house church. And we can get into this more as we work through various questions. But I would say he is representative of many house church Christians, but not all by any means. And I think especially there are many within the house church who would like to, in a lot of ways, just avoid the whole church state conversation and try to just lay low and not have to have that conversation. Wang Yi definitely pushes the boundaries on the far other end.

So he is very you know, he has been very willing to be very vocal, very outspoken. Some would accuse him of intentionally picking fights with the government. I don't know that that accusation is really warranted, but he he's a very notable figure and very probably one of the foremost thinkers within Chinese house church Christianity today. I don't know if that if you have kind of specific questions about his bio, I can keep talking, but I'll stop there. So

Yeah. Maybe just just round it out a little bit because so that was very helpful. I didn't know that about house churches, that that terminology. Yeah. I I just pictured, you know, maybe 50 max

of Yeah.

Of the house church. Yeah. But, yeah, that makes sense that, you know, understanding what I did about early rain, because I was wondering how they had this huge building and Yep. So, yeah, very helpful. And you also covered my next question because I was gonna ask how representative Wang Yi is.

So you said that he probably represents a lot of house church Christians, but may but not all of them.

Yeah. Well, so, you know, China is a very large country, obviously, and Christianity is significant within China at this point. So it's very hard to get an accurate number of Christians within China, but I would say safe estimates are between 70 and a hundred million Christians in China today. So as you can imagine, there are there are, of course, it's a very large group of people. You can find a lot of different traditions, a lot of different streams of thought within house church Christianity.

And it's probably also it would be good for me to clarify, there is also state sanctioned Christianity within China. So probably the the most the the thing that most unites house church Christianity across China is its unwillingness to submit to the oversight and the authority of the state sanctioned church. So when the communists took over in the middle of the twentieth century, they did not disband all religious practice within China. There is freedom to have religious practice within China. However, they did institute, basically, state agencies that oversee all of the various accepted religions within China.

So there is a, you know, there is a state sanctioned Christian Protestant Christian church. There's a state sanctioned Catholic church. There's a state sanctioned Buddhist organization. There's a state sanctioned Islamic group. So there's the the defining attribute of house churches in China is that they are not willing to submit to this church.

It's called the three self patriotic movement. And but but apart from from kind of that that uniting principle that, you know, has created this house church tradition, you really can find a very wide swath of theological streams of movements and alignments within that house church. So so I would say Wang Yi is representative of a portion of that house church. So if you if you think of all Christians in China and and then you make the first division between those who are in the three self church and those who are in the house church. The house church is a larger group than the three self church.

But, you know, you first kind of do that math. And then within the house church, I would say kind of the some of the bigger distinguishing factors are between the rural house church and the urban house church. Wang Yi is very much a part of the urban house church, which is very much built from, you know, kind of well educated middle class Chinese urbanites. And then within, you know, within that group, you could probably come up with a couple of different streams. One of which which is growing steadily is is reformed Christianity.

So Wang Yi is very much interested in and convinced of traditional reformed theology. And so yeah. So you start you know, you kinda start to think about all these different pockets and streams. And so and and even within his very, you know, his very particular group of the reformed urban house church, Even within that, he's not necessarily I would say he's widely respected, but not everyone would agree with a lot of the actual decisions that he and his church have made regarding the state. So

And maybe as we'll as we get into things, I'll understand that more. But I guess it's it's hard for me to comprehend if if you're in the house church, you've basically said, we're we're in opposition to state oversight. So you've kind of already you've already kind of set yourself up against the state in the sense of, like, our king is Christ and we're not gonna so it's it seems like Wang Yi's position and again, without without knowing all the nuance at this point, But it seems like his position would be kind of the majority position because he's in the in the group that's against the state.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess I would say this is what I mean by respected. I think a lot of people would read his theological arguments and would agree with probably the theology.

But then when it comes to the praxis, they may not agree with a lot of the actual decisions and steps that he and his church took and applying that theology, if that makes sense. So

Okay. Yeah.

That makes sense. And that gets into things like, you know, writing declarations and having house church pastors sign them publicly and and these types of things. So

yeah. So then maybe draw that out a little bit because, you know, what was it that Wang Yi did that that got him arrested, or or what are the things that he's doing that kind of set him up maybe more strongly than the other house churches?

Yep. So I wanna be really careful, and I I want to begin I want to qualify my answer by saying that's a very difficult question to answer. It's very difficult to, I would say, give a kind of black or white answer of, you know, this is what happened. This is what he did, and that and it it led to his arrest. Just because the systems in China are murky and everything is very everything is just very murky.

So it can be very hard to to pick it apart in kind of this very specific way and say, you know, this this event led to his arrest. That being said, I I would say that Lange Let me back up. I think what you said a moment ago is probably really crucial. So I would say one of the really big questions that house churches have been wrestling through, especially with the introduction of the new religious regulations in 2018, is really this question of who is the head of the church. So who, you know, who is the authority?

Who is over the church? Who is the head? And Wang Yi, you know, he has a very clear, very sharp conviction that Christ and only Christ is the head of the church. And that because of that, no submission to the three self church is warranted in any form. He is very willing and he he I would say he wants to persuade other house churches of his opinions.

He's very he has been very eager to write his thoughts and his convictions in order to kind of shore up and strengthen other house churches and other house church pastors regarding this conviction. Because I think especially when the new religious regulations came out, there were, you know it was a significant question of whether a lot of the house churches would at that point start to register with the three self church and submit to it. And so, especially in the lead up to 2018, Wang Yi was just doing he was doing a lot of writing and a lot of speaking publicly, basically, on on why he thought this should not happen, why he thought house churches should should remain independent and remain unaffiliated with the three self church. He wrote a couple of pretty important things. The first one is he wrote 95 theses modeled after Luther's Theses.

He wrote that and released it in 2017, kind of in connection to the Reformation five hundred anniversaries. He also wrote a basically, a declaration about why just basically saying that, you know, we as these house churches are are not going to submit to the new religious regulations, and we're not going to submit to joining the three self church. And a lot of house church pastors signed that publicly. We at China partnership, you can find that statement. And I I don't know what the final count was, but it was at least several hundred pastors and elders and leaders who signed that.

And then I would say there just were several other things that happened. So early rain every year commemorated the February, which if you remember that it was a absolutely devastating earthquake in 02/2008 and hundreds of thousands of deaths. And it revealed a lot of just institutional corruption within the Chinese government. And he so he and his church on the the anniversary of that earthquake would always have a a basically a memorial service. And in I think it was 02/2017 or I'm sorry.

No. It was 02/2018. It was about six months before his final arrest. He was arrested right before that service. And it was a pretty good warning sign that that things were going to probably escalate, that that he probably at some point was going to be arrested for a longer period of time.

So I I would not say that there was kind of any one specific event, but it was really just a slow and steady accumulation of his presence. And, you know, he's he's very well known within China. So he he's very much a public figure that yeah. So.

Okay. So maybe one more biographical question, and then we'll we'll try to get to maybe more of the the meat of praxis and application. Mhmm. So I I read and you had you had mentioned that he Wang Yi has an education. He has a background in law.

Mhmm. And particularly, I think you said human rights. Mhmm. So I would think that if, you know, somebody who's steeped in law and and government and those sorts of things, that he would be wanting to put that education to use to manipulate or maybe manipulate's a pejorative word, to Influence. Influence government.

Yeah. To to do good things for Christians. And that's that's what conservative Christians here in particular well, I guess, both sides of Christianity, just just different, you know, goals and avenues. But all Christians in The United States, almost all, want to influence government because government is the power that that's gonna do good and and bring us comfort and those sorts of things. So has how has Wang Yi been influenced by his education in in coming up with a theology that he has, or has he just kind of put that education to the side?

Like,

what how

does that play into this whole thing?

Well, I think so I would say first off, it's very clear he has a very sharp mind. He is a incredibly intelligent man. I think I would say it's very clear that his background has just really like, he's he's a very clear thinker. And I think that really comes from his background. He writes I was I was talking with someone recently, and we were just talking about how, you know, reading his theology, it it is it's very it reads like reading a lawyer.

You know? Like, he's very technical. He he's very good at making an argument. He's just he's sharp. I think when I think about just kind of who he is and how his background has shaped him.

It does, in some ways, remind me a little bit of of Luther, and I wanna be careful with that. I I don't wanna be like, oh, Wang Yi is the next Luther. But but I think that, you know, you look you look at Luther and it's you can just see how much all of his prior training and just the sharpening of his mind when he came to Christ and his heart was revived, how much just that that mind was kind of set on fire to think through a lot of these really big and tricky questions. And I kind of feel like it's similar with Wang Yi in just the sense that he he has a very sharp and active mind. And as a Christian and as a pastor, he's just basically, you know, he is using all of the gifts that he was given before his conversion, and just applying these gifts to these very thorny questions.

I would just Oh, man, I hope he somehow he is writing while he's incarcerated because yeah, he I would I just hope he I'm sure his mind is staying active. And it would be amazing if he's writing throughout all of this. But yeah, he I think he, you know, it's, it's, it's probably we'll probably we'll just have to start getting into a lot of his theology. But, you know, he he would not say that Christians should not seek to do good in in this world. But his focus is just so clear on what that good we're supposed to do in the world is.

And so, you know, I and I would also say one of the things that I really like about this book that I've worked on of his writings is that it follows several years, almost a decade of his writings. And you can really see a lot of development in his writings. And so the stuff that he wrote right after he became a Christian is definitely much more focused on these kind of questions of rights and the Chinese constitution and the history of the house church and the three self church and it's, it is much more focused on not necessarily advocacy, but, you know, what are the rights and protections of the Chinese house church. And as, you know, you follow his writings closer and closer to his arrest, you know, basically, I I wouldn't say that he stops caring about all of those questions, but he starts to basically recognize that that this eschatological question, where are we going? Where are we headed to?

What is the end goal and destiny of mankind? That that just dramatically alters the questions that we ask regarding rights and the rights of the church. And then, you know, this is getting more into the theology now, but I would say if you look at if I follow his writings, it it seems to me that he is thinking more and more like a theologian. That does not mean his legal background is is fading or going away, but he is definitely engaging these questions less with the primary lens of the law and more with the primary lens of our end goal and our end destiny. So I don't know if that answers your question.

Yeah. Look. Me see if I can summarize it. So I I might I know that I have a bias, and I want a particular answer. So I wanna summarize this, and you tell me if I'm importing what my thoughts or if I heard you correctly.

Okay.

So, you know, one of the things that that I've come to realize by reading a lot of other people throughout the ages is that, you know, the means and ends kind of kind of go together. So Wang Yi, what it seems like to me is that, you know, at the beginning, he he was trying to use the means of government because that's what he kind of knew, and he was a new Christian, use the means of government to achieve the ends. And so if your end is rights, then or or laws, then the government is an inappropriate means to maybe get some of those ends. But as he studied eschatology and and looked at the end goal of Christianity, he realized that the means that get you to God's end, to to that end, to the eschatological end are is the church. And so the government kind of gets put to the wayside not because they don't do some good things, maybe, but because they're not concomitant with the the ends that we as the church are seeking.

Yeah. I I think that's not yeah. I I think that's a good summary. I would say, you know, he one of the interesting things to me reading his works and kind of watching Early Rain from a Distance is to me, sometimes it feels like there are these contradictions in the sense that, you know, early rain never completely disengaged from some of their political advocacy, I would say. So for example, they had a ministry taking to take care of and care for basically political dissidents within China.

And and then a lot of that comes from the fact that the especially the families of political dissidents have very few resources. They're they're they often basically live in poverty. And I think because of Wang Yi's background, he and that church really had a heart to care for the material needs of these people. And I would say they have always been very aware of and mindful of just the poor and those, you know, who are who bear a lot of the brunt of China's social struggles and the oppression that that happens there. So as an American looking at this, I think, you know, in The US, we're so quick to put any kind of care for the poor or the marginalized or the oppressed into a certain political stance.

And and when you look at this church in China, I I it just really doesn't fit into our our categories. And I think that's one of the really interesting things to me about it is that I would say within China, like, what's political and what's not, and what's legal and what's not doesn't often fit into our categories the same way. And so I think that's one reason why it's hard to it's often hard to really as I said, it's murky, and it's hard to give these kind of black and white answers on, you know, what what was legal, what was political, what was not within early reign in China. So but I do think that yes. I I think that is a very good way to talk about that I would say the over the course of the years leading up to Wong Yi's arrest and detention in 02/2018.

And I I just realized, I don't think I really talked about that event specifically, but he is in jail for nine years. I would say for sure that question of our eschatology became larger and larger in his mind and loomed larger and larger. And and that where we headed to where are we going has really transformed a lot of his thought and the means by which he he engages and yeah. And and I would say that kind of starts to I think the more he has gone in that direction, the more the more people are the more he's approaching these questions from a theological perspective, I think the more and wider his influence on the house church is. So

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that black and white answers are are hard to, come up with. And and if you do come up with a black and white answer, it's probably going to be very problematic Yeah.

And and have all kinds of implications. But it's it's good to see someone wrestling wrestling through that kind of stuff, whereas I I feel like I I'm coming out of a culture that just kind of accepts and and kind of, you know, accepts Caesar as lord Yeah. In a basically equal sense as as Jesus is lord. So it's nice to see people wrestle through things. Mhmm.

So so that that speaks to governments. I'd also be interested and I don't know if there's as much on this, but maybe you can give me a best guess. What what does Wang Yi and and the church in China think about nonviolence. So I imagine that when Wang Yi was arrested, there probably wasn't a thought in his mind or his congregation's mind to fight back against the state for their rights. Is that is that correct?

Yeah. I I would say there's really not well, so I I would say two things. There is not a conversation within the house church in China about forceful defense or, you know, physical engagement. They are they do advocate for themselves. So and this is also, I think, you know, a mark of Wang Yi's legal background.

There are lawyers that they use to try to, you know, go through the system and help themselves. So, you know, they are not opposed to legal advocacy within the channels that are presented to them. It's China. So, you know, it's it's a very it's it's a it's not a system that is very transparent and very easy to navigate. So, you know, the I would say the advocacy that they do is it's you know, there Wang Yin will remain in jail for nine years.

He's you know, they're they're I don't know that they're gonna advocate him out of there. But nonetheless, they do believe that Christians are able and not just able, but it's good for Christians to advocate within the system as they are able to do. So they would not take the role, for example, of a lot of traditional pacifists in the West, you know, like the Quakers or whatnot, which would, you know, basically forego kind of legal defenses in that way. So, but, yeah, there was I was just looking up. There's another organization that has translated some stuff coming out of China.

It's called China Source. And they translated an article that he wrote. This was something he wrote to his congregation, but it was very widely shared around China. And it's called When the Police Come Knocking, a guide for churches. And it's a very lengthy, just basically very lengthy and very specific direction, like, list of instructions of, you know, like, when you are interrogated, here are the things that you should do.

You know? And it's you I think you would find it really interesting. Some of the things are, you know, fairly obvious. I think some of them are not. But, you know you know, he says, under no circumstances lie.

Don't attempt to play smart and protect the church or others by lying, you know. And I think he gets very detailed in what a Christian should do. And and again, this is again where his his legal background comes out because he, you know, he's citing, like, paragraph four of police law, you know, article 20. You know? And he's just giving very specific instructions to Christians of.

But it is it is it is very much from a position of nonviolence and a desire to submit, but, you know, to it's a I mean, it's basically submissive disobedience, I guess you could call it. So I mean, and that's what he's pointing to in the declaration that you read a couple weeks ago. But yeah. I'll send you the link for that. It's it's a really interesting read.

Yeah. I'm I'm definitely gonna check that out, and and it also piqued my interest because we did some episodes on on lying as

well. Mhmm.

And, you know, I'm I'm seen as crazy because I I advocate, like, well, you should never lie. It's, you know, objectively it's an objective moral good to tell the truth or or to be silent. Like, you don't have to, you know, betray people,

but you

can be silent. There are other options. And so it's interesting, and people think I'm crazy for that, but like, Augustine says the same thing, and it's nice to hear people who are in in the heat of things who are are able to to say that kind of stuff too. So that yeah. That sounds fantastic.

Mhmm.

Yeah. Yeah. So with with nonviolence, I mean, you get so many different different views. I mean, some people say nonresistance, so you don't resist at all. Some people think you shouldn't go through the court system.

Some people think, well, we should be nonviolent to political authorities, but not somebody else. Like, if if somebody comes and attacks me because I'm a Christian, or if somebody comes in and attacks me who's not a part of the state, then I defend myself. Do you know if if Wang Yi and the church is is focused just on nonviolence to the state?

Yeah. I think that's where I would have to just say I don't know. Everything I've read that touches on nonviolence is is very limited to this question of the church's role with the state. I don't know what they would say, you know, in that type of situation. And, I I would not wanna extrapolate and try to come up with the answers on that.

So

Okay.

It's it's possible they haven't really written about it. It's it's possible that that has not been kind of systematically thought through at this point. But I don't know. Yeah.

I I didn't think you would, but I was, you know, taking the chance.

Curious. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, Wang Yee is I guess, it really depends on depends on how you define the term protest because I think people think protests you think some some people think rioting, some people think mass demonstrations, some people think, you know, just kind of pushing back. Wang Yi's article, the one that I read and I know several others, are definitely protests in a sense of saying, we protest what what the government is doing or or whatnot. Mhmm. But at the same time, he says that that his protests are are not to change laws or government.

Mhmm. So I I don't even know exactly what what I want to ask in that regard.

What is he protesting?

Yeah. What is he protesting? But also, how do you how do you delineate between so I think the church is supposed to be a prophetic witness. So even if like, I couldn't vote in the last election here in The United States, and I've I've come to think that government is very problematic. So while I wouldn't engage in government, I I think being a prophetic witness to it is what Christians are called to do.

I can call them to stop doing injustice, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go wield the sword against people myself. I'm I'm gonna kind of, you know, hold their feet to the fire, as we say. So, yeah, where would Wang Yi, as best as you can assess, like, how would he differentiate being a prophetic witness and protesting or protesting in an inappropriate manner to seek power?

I'm gathering my thoughts. So I would say, well, let me say this. This is I'm gonna share my opinion for a moment because I actually think it's it's something I've thought a lot about when working with Wongie's content. I think that there is a really kind of really fundamental divide between how I think about these questions as a twenty first century American and how someone in the Chinese house church would think about these questions. And I think that divide is it really comes down to the fact that I live and participate in a democratic system where I believe that my participation has an impact or bears some responsibility.

I think in a system like China where you are not you are not in a democratic system, and therefore, you're, in some sense, is always outside the system, if that makes sense. How you think about your responsibility is different. Because for me, I think about voting. I think about influencing the government. And I think like, well, I'm within this system.

I'm a part of this system. I think for the Chinese Christian, it's always very clear that they are not within the system that can affect change. And so therefore, how you think about the Church is a little different, I think, because in a sense, the Church is free from that question of, am I obliged to influence this government somehow? I mean, the question in China is, well, the house church is not going to influence the government politically. It's not even really a question.

And so conversations about engagement are always framed from this position of absolute weakness. The house church is never going to have power under the current system. And so it's kind of not even that's not even a part of the conversation, I guess is what I would say is how to have power, and then like what to do with that power. So I think when Wang Yi is talking about protest or disobedience, He's thinking about these things in terms of what impact do they have on society around me and not so much what impact do they have on my authorities above me. So when he talks about protest, I would say at this point, especially right before in the year or so before his arrest, he's really talking about visibly demonstrating to the world around him that there is another world that is behind everything we see.

And and his goal is not to necessarily affect change on the Chinese Communist Party, but it's to testify to anyone who is listening, whether it's within the party or his neighbor next door, to the real world and to the spiritual realities that surround us. Sometimes I think that, you know, for me in America, the fact that I view myself as part of the democratic system that makes decisions, it is a burden and a complication that those without any power politically whatsoever don't have to deal with. You know? They they have the privilege of being outsiders and the freedom of being outsiders, whereas I bear responsibility that I have find very hard to pick apart.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess so, you know, I think I would I would, like, I appreciate that that perspective and I I resonate with that. I think I would I would push back on that, and just that to tell you a story. When I was at my church a couple years ago, right around the election, they were they were announcing that they needed helpers with the food pantry.

And I was like, oh, my schedule's busy. I can't do that. You know, nobody's like, hardly anybody volunteers for that thing

Mhmm.

Because everybody is doing something else. It's not their ministry, whatnot. And that's okay. Like, nobody judged me for it. I don't judge anybody else for it.

That's just kind of life. But in that election cycle, I was I was contemplating not voting. And when I voiced that, people were like, but you have to vote. Like, it's it's it's a responsibility. It's a moral responsibility.

And it clicked for me that basically, my group, we're trying to make the state a savior. Like, we have to vote. That's our power. They have like, they're gonna save us type of thing. Like, we do good through the state.

Whereas, when they're saying they need help for a food pantry, we just have silence and crickets because what what good is that gonna do to go help and serve people?

Mhmm.

And so I guess with like, I I really resonate with with Wang Yi, and I agree with you. I think in a democracy, we do have this perception that that we can we can bring about good. But even in the democracy, like, I resonate a lot with with Wang Yi, because whereas his state might be a an overt oppressor, I think it's it's similar for us, it's just that our state ends up being a false savior for for our group. Mhmm. And that doesn't mean I mean, it doesn't mean that some people can't do it without idolatry.

I just yeah. I've I've seen in the last couple years how politics just takes over.

Yeah. Well and I think my my point is is really just that we have very different starting points because even your your decision not to vote is an active decision. Right? Whereas house church Christians and Wang Yi, and and that's what I mean by they they are outside they they are outside the systems of influence in ways we can't it's hard for us, I think, to even imagine, you know, because who we vote for, whether we vote, whether we don't vote, all of those things are are active decisions that we have, you know, it's our our our right to decide to vote or not to vote, you know. But when you look at Christians in places who are truly disenfranchised, I think that it it it reframes this conversation significant way.

And it really reframes just the question of what what protest is, you know, and and who we're protesting against and why we're protesting and who we're protesting for, you know. And I think that's where for for Wang Yi, this question of who is the head of the church and where are we going and what is the, you know, the destiny of humanity and the destiny of the church. It's just there's there's no overlap with, you know, a responsibility to the government. I think there's one thing there's a portion of something that he wrote that I have pulled up. And if you're okay with it, I'll just read.

Because I think-

Yeah, definitely.

Having worked with his material, I always go back to this as probably the most important thing for me kind of understanding his perspective and where he comes from on this. So this is from a sermon that he gave. It's called The Cross and the Landfill. And this is just basically his summary of this this question of of eschatology and how that influences the decisions that we make in this life. So he says, the church usually has three ways of viewing reality.

One view is that the ship is sinking, talking about the world, and thus there is no value in doing anything other than endeavoring to save souls. Another views the ship not as sinking, but as damaged. Regardless of how tattered the ship may be, those who hold this view believe that the power of redemption will uphold the ship and that the kingdom of God will eventually be established on the ship. The third view says that the ship is sinking, but the instruments on the ship must still be cleaned and even used at least once more as in a performance. There will be a brand new ship in the future, but life on the new ship will not be completely unrelated to our life on this currently sinking ship.

In a way, our present reality has in fact become meaningless in the light of the gospel. As such, if we were to die immediately or if time were to instantly come to an end, we would have no regrets. However, in another sense, this meaninglessness this meaningless reality has become meaningful because of the gospel. We must cherish cherish every second as long as we are still alive and time has not yet come to an end. For it is only through faith that this meaningless reality is connected with eternity.

And this is what I think is really important. He says, the present reality is an inverted image of eternity. Therefore, our view of reality is of the third kind. The world is a damaged ship and really is thinking. As such, you cannot build the kingdom of heaven on this ship, nor can you treat this ship as your eternal home.

But all that is on the ship is an inverted image of eternity, and it is only on this old ship that we can understand the form of the new ship. The key is faith, and faith needs a stage. Faith is like a master ballet dancer dancing gracefully on a dilapidated stage. On the one hand, as long as the dance is beautiful, what does it matter if the stage is in tatters? Alternatively, imagine how glorious and resplendent it will be the day this master dancer performs on a magnificent stage.

For now, however, God says that the value of the dance must be expressed on a dilapidated stage. And I think, you know, you can read this and say, well, what does this have to do with protest? But I think this idea that our reality on this side of heaven is this inverted image of eternity, that it's this dilapidated stage that this play is being enacted out on in order to demonstrate the beauty that is coming. It's that's the backdrop for his protest, and that's that's the lens through which he protests. And so he protests as a testimony to something greater.

And, you know, and and I think that's how you square this. Like, I'm not trying to change the government because his protest is is less focused on changing laws and changing governments, and his protest is really mainly focused on on testifying and testifying to what is true and what is real. And and that's why when they you know, all he and all these pastors, when they get arrested, they're all like, well, it's time to go preach the gospel to those who need to hear it. You know? And I think that's just where all of their engagement with the state is really focused on this idea of testifying and of testimony.

Yeah. I I thought that the analogy of the ballet dancer in the stage was was beautiful

Mhmm.

And and and very powerful to kinda help you see it. It reminds me of, you know, there's different theodicies for why God allows evil, and and the soul building theodicy is one of those where, this life kind of prepares us for for the next. Or, you know, this idea of sanctification, which is that, you know, this this life here isn't worthless just because the world is broken. Mhmm. But it it does prepare us.

And it yeah. So I I think that that's spot on, and it just it it makes so much sense with us being salt and light, and it helps me to see my job as a as a Christian, you know, is to do the dance, is to exhibit that faith and yeah. And and while I'm dancing across the dilapidated stage, I'm probably gonna step on a rusty nail and or something here and there. And it's gonna be uncomfortable, but, you know, do the dance. Like you said, they go to prison, they do the dance.

Yeah. And that brings up one of the things that I know one of the books that you'd mentioned talks about suffering, and I think protest and government and nonviolence and all these things, you can't talk about those things without talking about suffering. You know, going back to first Peter and slaves submitting to their masters, that just blows my mind. Mhmm. Chinese pastors saying, well, time to go preach the gospel in prison.

Blows my mind. Mhmm. Mhmm. Especially as a as an American Christian who lives in comfort with with all kinds of rights. Mhmm.

I I'd love for you to kind of in in the short time span, I know you wrote a whole got a whole book on it, but can you kind of pull out what are some really important things about suffering? Why it's it's necessary? How it's helpful? You know, give us give us a five minute treatise on suffering.

Well yeah. So this is probably, personally, in my life, been one of the hardest things for me as I engage theology coming out of these house churches in China. You know, they will I have had Chinese pastors say to me, you know, just look me in the eyes and say, the Christian life means suffering. And, you know, I think I've been wrestling through that for the last seven years. The first time a Chinese pastor said that to me, I just I mean, it was just like a visceral reaction within me of, like, how can you say that?

Like, how you know, as an American, that does not sit well with us. I think that you know, I think it's it's interesting because as I'm working with the theologies of suffering coming out of China, I've also been going back and reading just some more of our own theology from the West. You know, we have, we have theologians who talk about suffering. But it's not in our it's not in our like lived church experience. Like it's not what churches talk about, you know, like our corporate sufferings.

So what I think the house church really has to say to us right now is, you know, basically, they will just say suffering is part of what it means to be united to Christ. Our Lord and savior who we believe we are united to through the Holy Spirit, he suffered. That was what his life on earth was marked by. And we are not to believe that the servant is greater than the master. And our master suffered, and our master calls us to participate in his suffering with him.

And I would say kind of what's happening in China is is this theology was very much a a lived lay theology through the very harsh trials of the house church through the twentieth century, last half of the twentieth century. And there's a phrase that a lot of pastors use that they say comes from the traditional house church, which is walking the way of the cross, and that we walk the way of the cross with Christ. And I think what's happening is that as more pastors are being theologically educated, as they're engaging the West Theology more, they're basically just kind of systematizing this theology. And, you know, they're they would basically say, you know, all Christians suffer. And not just individually, but we suffer corporately with Christ, that the church and the church's identity is to be marked by suffering.

And, you know, that may look like persecution. And may look like hardship under the state, but not necessarily. And and if it doesn't look like that, then it's something else. You know? Maybe there are sins in your life that it will feel like suffering to put to death those sins.

Maybe there are relationships that will be, you know, full of suffering in your life. Maybe being in a church will be a source of suffering. Maybe you will deal with physical physical suffering in your life. But in all of these things, we are made like Christ and we share in his afflictions until we are resurrected in glory with him. I think for me, I I think, you know, we in The US, I think we talk about suffering if we're dealing with physical suffering.

I think we're starting to talk about the kind of mental suffering and emotional suffering that takes place. But I would still say we don't have a very you know, we I just can't think of many times in, you know, an American church setting that I've maybe ever heard someone just say to me straight up, if you're a Christian, you will suffer. And that is what it means to be a Christian is to suffer with Christ and his afflictions. So

Well, that that's actually a perfect segue because I have a question for you. So one of the ways that that some people are saying that, Christians today are are suffering in The States and Canada, in particular, or or being persecuted, you know, the the whole COVID and masks thing.

Mhmm.

And, you know, I I struggle with this because I I don't have any any confidence in the state whatsoever. I I don't trust motives. I don't trust actions, that kind of thing. But I I don't know. I also talking about how we don't suffer in The States ultimately, or we don't bear our crosses, really.

We a lot of the times. A lot a lot of the times, to kind of justify these things that Christ said, like, we will suffer and we will bear our crosses, we have to find suffering and persecution in every every little thing that really isn't suffering and persecution for the name of Christ. And so we we do have a persecution complex, and it helps me to see that when I I have friends from from around the world, and on Facebook, I'll see kind of their reactions to certain things. And it's it kind of helps to put things in perspective from a global perspective. So a lot of them, the internationals, think that we're we're kind of crazy in The United States.

At the same time, there are plenty of close friends and relatives and and people in my group who really think that the the masks, mask mandates, and other sorts of things are suffering and persecution, you know, if a church won't comply with the state Mhmm. That that that's then persecution. Do you know how Wang Yi might respond to that, or can you maybe talk about some principles that you can pull out from that which might speak to

Mhmm.

How to counsel Mhmm. Christians who who think this is persecution, whether it is or Yeah.

Well, I mean, interestingly, I can I can tell you that, you know, China has gone through a year of pandemic as well? And the house churches have been very faithful to comply and to submit with regulations regarding the pandemic. Now I'm sure there are exceptions somewhere. I don't know every house church across China. But I will say, in general, the house churches in China seek to be very good citizens.

They seek to be very faithful citizens within China. And I think this is important because they are not, I would not say that the house churches are out there looking for things to protest or looking for things to not submit on. If anything, they are trying to submit and be good citizens as far as they possibly can. And I think this is where the kinda end goals really come into play because, you know, they are very clear, and I would say Wange is very clear, that Christians are called to be upstanding and good citizens to the far limits that they can until it ex until it crosses the line of who is in charge of the church and limiting the preaching of the gospel. And until those two things are crossed, you submit to your government.

And so, you know, I I don't have Wang Yi's opinion on masks or on mask mandates, so I'm not gonna, you know, put words in his mouth. But I will say that they the house churches care a lot about being faithful citizens within China. And I and I think that, you know, I I think that I I I was thinking about this question before we started talking. And I and I think kind of one of the things I was thinking about was just as in all things in the Christian life, we we know we can we can know if it's spirit filled by whether the fruits of the spirit are produced, you know? And I don't think that's any different with things like civil disobedience and protesting government decisions.

And I think that, you know, I have not studied all of the debates regarding church meetings and masking in The US. So I would not consider myself an authority on any of these situations. But I think part of what I would say is just, you know, the fruits of the spirit are peace, patience, love, joy, faithfulness, kindness, gentleness. You know, like, if if those things are not being produced even in your civil disobedience or in your protest, then I think we have to examine our hearts and we have to examine whether it's a spirit filled protest or not. You know?

And I think too, you know, when Chinese house church leaders are arrested, almost all of them, pretty much, I think any testimony I've ever come across from a house church leader, when they talk about their arrest, they talk about their own personal repentance that that requires. And Wang Yi talks about persecution of the church in China as a call for the church to repent, not as a call for the government necessary I mean, he does say the government needs to repent, but he also says that persecution of the church in China is a time for the church to repent. And I think that and, again, this to me is what are what are the fruits of our civil disobedience? Are are we producing repentance in our protest, or are we producing self justification? You know?

And to me, one of the most flooring things working with house church pastors is when they talk about their own need to repent of their own idols when they are being arrested and persecuted for being a Christian involved with a church. And I I don't see that as a common conversation in The US. That's not something that's not our immediate response. You know? Any any hint of oppression or of marginalization, we immediately jump to conversations about rights, and we're not quick to talk about what we need to be repenting of ourselves.

So

Yeah. That that's so interesting and and so different than the American church repenting as they go to prison. That just that blows my mind. Yeah. And and it remind sorry.

Go ahead.

Oh, I I can read a testimony from someone about that, but finish your thoughts. So

Yeah. It reminds me just the other day, I was reading a book on on elders, and it it talked about how, you know, there there's high qualifications and standards. And it quoted first Peter four where it says, judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Mhmm. And it said, you know, you you recognize that that, like, that passage is encompassed in this section of Peter, which talks about suffering Mhmm.

And persecution. And I was like, that's that's weird to think of, you know, when when I'm being persecuted as an American Christian, like, well, my rights are being infringed upon and all that's true. They are. Mhmm. But at the same time, like, to think of it as a time for me to reflect and repent.

Mhmm. Yeah. It it's just amazing, and I I think our our church could learn from that in a number of issues, I think, with, you know, with the the masks, racial reconciliation, two two big things. Mhmm.

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's I this is I read this this testimony. I spoke at the Gospel Coalition Women's Conference in April, and I finished with this testimony. And I think this is just one of the most flooring things I've ever read.

I have met this woman. She is a very dear sister in the Lord. And, you know, I'll set this up just by saying she's, you know, she's very similar to you and me. She's a middle class Christian, has had a very good job in China, has been able to send her daughter overseas for her education. You know?

So this is someone like you and me. And she was arrested, and and I'll just read her testimony. She said, the Lord amazingly helped me put what I learned into practice when I was detained for thirty days. My prayers used to be more centered around my personal needs or the ministries of the church. It was similar in our church.

We would pray about different things. But no matter how much we prayed, it did not seem like it helped us grow very much spiritually. During the first three days that I spent at the detention center, I had high hopes that God would deliver me and that I would be able to leave after a few days. But when I finally received a note that said I would be detained for a month, I made my peace. I saw how Jesus, the word, became flesh and entered into our world, this world of darkness and filth.

At first, I really wanted to leave that place because those who were kept there with me were all thieves or drug dealers or prostitutes. But praying the Lord's prayer helped me recognize who I was and what God's will for me was in that situation. On the third day that I was there, I suddenly understood and surrendered my heart to his lordship and began to pray every day for the 40 plus cellmates who were there with me. God was so amazing. We were not allowed to share the gospel, but I prayed that his will would be done and that he would bring those that I could share the gospel with to me.

Two of my cellmates ended up coming to our church after I was released. As I prayed, forgive my debts as I forgive my debtors. God helped me face my own sins. In particular, he helped me face my idols, the idol of comfort and worldliness and the idol of wanting others approval. We had little privacy in there.

We were often strip searched, and we did not have much food and had to sleep on a floor. But God used all of that to deal with my own idolatry. As for the police and officers who arrested me, I had a lot of anger toward them at first, but I knew that I had to forgive them. Before I was released, an officer asked me, do you hate the government? At that moment, I really could not feel hate in my heart, and they were amazed by this.

While detained, I was especially worried about my church. I thought this is the end. Our church must be divided now. I have thought there would be no one to lead. Our church must have stopped gathering, and they must have stopped studying the Bible.

So I prayed for the church according to the Lord's prayer, lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. But the most amazing thing happened. During the month of my detention, the church had not stopped worshiping. The reason was that the pastors from other cities had traveled to our city to lead our little church in worship. Moreover, even more churches immediately set up three teams, a pastoral team, a legal team, and a prayer team, in order to support us.

That was why I was able to spend my days in detention quite joyfully. It is also why the Lord's prayer closes with amen, because in all things we see God's glory being revealed. My time in detention was really quite alright, and I felt very thankful for that. I mean, I read this and it's just mind blowing. I don't know how yeah.

I just I I you know, it's I think this is a very good snapshot of what pastors in the house church in China are striving for, which is basically, you know, when persecution comes, use it to preach the gospel, use it to repent of your own sins and pray that it builds up the church and makes it stronger and not weaker, you know? And I and I just think that's not those are not the immediate reactions of the American church when hardship comes towards us.

Yeah. And maybe, like you mentioned before, maybe that's I used to kind of write off eschatology, you know, as that future thing that doesn't matter so much. But saying what you just said there and talking a little bit earlier, it seems like that is largely what is guiding or giving the motivation or the framework for them to act like they do.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, I wanna be clear, they are not their focus on eschatology and their focus on their end destination in the new heavens is not making them otherworldly. I think when we talk about that in in the West, often because of our our various doctrinal and traditional histories, we kind of think like, oh, people who focus on heaven and focus on the end goal become otherworldly.

And I think the the Chinese churches focus on evangelism. Also in The US, we tend to have this like, well, if you just focus on those people who focus on evangelism, they don't care about doing good. They don't care about justice. And I would just say, you know, in all of these things, these are churches who are very concerned with reaching those who are, you know, the least of these in society, they are not they believe I think the the difference is that they believe that the gospel and eschatology are the things that will primarily make a difference to this broken world, you know. And their focus on these things doesn't make them otherworldly.

It makes them very much engaged with their neighborhoods and with the, you know, prostitutes and drug dealers who are in jail with them. So

Yeah. Well, let me I I appreciate you giving me an hour and a half of your time. I know that time is very, it is very difficult to come by. So thank you. I just wanna close with with one question and, give you the last word here.

So considering the state of The United States, the the American church right now, and kind of whatever our issues are, you perceive them to be at the moment, and knowing what you know about the Chinese church, what would maybe be the the biggest takeaway that you think we could we could take from the Chinese church or Wang Yi specifically?

I think the biggest takeaway that I would I would have is that that the loss of influence and the loss of power does not stop the work of God. That we you know, my belief would be that, you know, personally, that we are called to use the means that are given to us to be Christ in this world. I also think learning from the Chinese church that living with Christ in this world means suffering and it means all sorts of things that go with that. And that's not something we need to fear. It's not something that should cause us anxiety because we worship and we serve the ascended lord who is king over this universe.

And if the church in China can grow and thrive the way it has over the last seventy years, then I don't think we have anything to fear in The US. And fear is not what we are called to. I think that one of the things I'm personally just really learning from the house church is that suffering and pressure and, you know, persecution, if anything, it makes our faith more real. And it gives the legs to the things that often I think remain theory until you have to put them into practice. And so in The US, we talk about forgiving our enemies, but you I I don't know what it means to forgive my enemies like my sister in China who has been arrested and been taken to a jail and strip searched and is able to see in her heart that she bears no hatred towards the government.

You know? So, you know, for me, in a lot of sense senses, you know, I don't I don't want that type of persecution, but I hope that if it were ever to come, that my faith would be made real in the same way that hers is.

Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you giving me a bunch of your time

Yeah. It was fun.

And insight.