(113) S7E10 {Interview ~ Kingdom Women} Submission, Oppression, and Freedom
Welcome back to the Fourth Wave Podcast. Today's episode is going to be our first interview. It originally was not a planned interview, but after after thinking more and more about the last episode, I realized that I needed some people to be able to to speak into this difficult issue because my position as a a white male who is not oppressed in the least in any way, I needed somebody to be able to speak into the difficulties of the last issue of of how we can discuss asking people to be non violent when it comes to their their response to oppression. How do you ask people to do that? Isn't that just furthering oppression?
Derek:So in today's conversation, we are going to talk with three women about their views and experiences in regard to to particularly women being oppressed and what that means for the church and and how we should kind of treat that. So even though this episode kind of branches us away from non violent action specifically, I think this is this is an episode that is going to be at the heart of what non violence non violent action seeks which is how we are to show Christ to the world and how we are to love even those who are oppressing. You might end up walking away from this episode feeling more gray than, than you even felt coming into it and that there are less black and whites. But I think that that that can be a good thing as we wrestle through difficult topics like this. I am excited because, this is the first interview that, you know, that I'm doing.
Derek:And before I have you introduce yourselves, I I I wanna explain a little bit about about the the past few episodes. So we I've been working through a season on nonviolent action, which just basically looks at various nonviolent actions in history that have have impacted the world and politics and all that kind of stuff. And because I believe, and I think you guys all believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but I I think that nonviolence is the right thing to do. Right? Okay.
Derek:I I thought you would, but, you know, it's okay if you don't. So I it seems like the the teachings of the New Testament don't just talk about nonviolence in the face of, you know, evil. They also talk about our submission to various authorities. So whether that's in Peter, slaves to masters, wives to husbands, which I would extrapolate to mean spouse to spouse, and and that kind of stuff. So it's nonviolence, this idea of submission kind of extends.
Derek:So in the last episode, I looked at a bunch of ways that it seems like a lot of us are okay throwing off that those what seem to be clear biblical commands to submit, like to to tyrannical governments or to to bad spouses and and things like that. And and I find it really difficult to to reconcile that. Like, how do I take the words of Jesus seriously when he tells me, hey. Basically, if somebody is gonna come in and harm my family, I need to find a nonviolent solution to that because of enemy love, and they're an image bearer, and and the way that Christ taught me to lay down my life. How do I reconcile that with these other things that I don't like?
Derek:Like, I can't imagine going back into the eighteen hundreds and telling slaves to submit to their masters. I just I I can't even fathom that. I can't fathom having a woman tell me that she's being abused by her husband and saying, well, you need to stay in that relationship, whatever that looks like, you know, flee from the abuse and or whatnot. But I can't imagine telling a woman that. But I'm nonviolent, and I I don't know how to reconcile that.
Derek:So I you know, I I'm afraid that my last episode is gonna kinda seem really misogynistic because I'm I'm questioning this. And so there are a lot of reasons that I wanted you guys to come on to this this this show, but it's part of it was because I felt like it's unfair for me to kinda sit here from my armchair with being a white male where slavery isn't in my past and something that that impacts me. And being a woman who are the ones who tend to be more abused in relationships doesn't impact me. And I wanted to hear from from the voices of some women. So that's that's a big part of of why I wanted you guys on here.
Derek:So thank you for joining me. And, yeah, why don't we start ahead, start with introductions? If we wanna start with Judy.
Judy:Okay. Well, hi. I'm I'm Judy, and I'm happy to be here, actually. I feel really honored to be, able to to talk with a couple of friends and a guy I don't know about this topic because it's it's very near and dear to my heart. I'm happily married to, Jason for twenty years.
Judy:I I come from a home where there was some chaos and and some abuse, and so I lived it as a child. But in my marriage, by the grace of god, yeah. I've I've I've learned a better way. And we have three children by the miracle of adoption and birth, and we're in the process of adopting a teenager from Mexico right now. Right in the thick of it, the paperwork pregnancy is I'd rather be pregnant for real than paperwork pregnancy, frankly.
Judy:I have for a number of years been involved in abuse advocacy and in the last several, specifically in domestic abuse advocacy. And, so, yeah, I'm excited to talk about this topic because it's it's very needed, not just outside the church, but very much inside the church as well.
Derek:Alright. Rebecca, alphabetically, I think you're up next.
Rebekah:Hi. I'm Rebecca. It's kinda odd that I'm doing yet another podcast on women in submission because I'm not married. I always feel it's above my pay grade.
Rosanna:Wow.
Rebekah:I've come from a Christian family. Growing up, the church that I was in as a teenager taught, like, authority and submission and things like that. And I've read those books when I was maybe 14, 15, and I had a lot of questions that I felt there was something missing about that teaching and that theology, and I've always been on a quest to figure it out to sort of untangle the puzzle as it were. So it for me, it is a I don't have I wouldn't like, you know, personal experience with abuse, but I've definitely seen how authority teachings can lead to very unhealthy situations for, like, parents and children, husband and wife. So I definitely think this is something that needs to be untangled.
Rebekah:I, I am the editor at the Kingdom Outpost, and, also, the three of us are together on the, Kingdom Women's podcast. So just throw it back there.
Derek:Alright. Thank you. Rosanna?
Rosanna:Yes. My name is Rosanna, and, yeah, I am a mom of three children, and I am a survivor of a violent relationship. So, that has led me on a long quest about to learn about submission and femininity and womanhood in the kingdom. And, yes, I am on Kingdom Women podcast, and I am a founder and board member of Life Ring Christian Ministries, which is a group set up to advocate for women in violent relationships. As I as Kingdom Women podcast, we women discuss womanhood in the kingdom, and it's been very, very interesting to learn with other women and how our theology of womanhood affected us as we grew up as little girls and as we entered the into the kingdom of Jesus and as we learned about about being wives and moms or or single people in the kingdom.
Rosanna:And it's been just really fascinating. So talking about this subject is really gonna be interesting for me.
Derek:Alright. Well, thank you thank you for sharing. And I wanna make sure that any links that you want to give me for organizations that have been helpful to you or or things that you're a part of, just send those to me, and I'll make sure that I put those in the the notes. So and also, I've got a lot of questions here, and I don't know that we're gonna get to all of them. So I'll make sure to to put those in the notes too so that I don't know.
Derek:If we have a future dialogue or if other people wanna see the questions that we're thinking through, then I'll I'll put those there. Okay. So first question here. Submission is a is a really big word when we talk about this issue. So I think it's kind of important to define the terms.
Derek:Can you define what submission means? What you think it means from the Bible? And do we distinguish submission from obedience?
Rosanna:Submission is a voluntary ranking oneself under, And that's about as all as far as I'm going to go with it, but it's actually something that has been used in in terminology of, like, soldiers ranking themselves under their captain. It's it's in submission, it's a voluntary giving of oneself. It's never a commanded or coerced position to be in. Like, we submit to Christ because we love Christ. Like, Bible even says, we love him because he first loved us.
Rosanna:So it's actually a reaction. It's not a command in my opinion. I mean, yes, we do have this. We should submit. It's it's good, but it's definitely voluntarily not coerced.
Judy:Oh, submission is not submission is not coerced. It's something we voluntarily give, we're not meant to coerce it from other people either who who may, by the world's ranking, rank under us by the, you know, hierarchies of this world. I I I think submission submission to Christ, I I like to think of it as it's, choosing the course of action that brings the most glory to God and the most honor to others. And and sometimes that course, you know, whatever the course of action that does that sometimes, especially in in ish in cases of domestic abuse, domestic violence, sometimes those courses of action look really contrary to what a common interpretation of submission is, you know, purported to be. But it's always put it's always putting the the glory of of Christ and the honor of another first.
Derek:Okay. So follow-up question to that, because that sounds good to me. But so one of the things that I realized about myself and my Christian group is that we are very big consequentialists. Right? For for me, twenty sixteen election was perfect because I'm like, how do we vote for somebody like like Trump when and I can't vote for the other side either with abortion, but how do we vote justify voting for somebody like Trump?
Derek:And and my group was like, well, you get a supreme court justice, and that's the most loving because it it helps babies in in the womb. And, I mean, they had tons of rationale for it. And it was all, you know, I know what the ends of God are, and I'm gonna pursue them even if I don't really like the means and the means aren't good. So how how do we in thinking about the good of others, how how do we balance making sure that we are submitting to god's means and not trying to justify the means that we're using with the ends we're shooting for. Does that question make sense?
Rosanna:I'm not entirely sure.
Derek:Okay. So I'll I'll if let's say first Peter says what it says, and it means what some people think it means. Right? So Jesus says, don't kill other people even if they're attacking my family. That's hard to take, and I would think that the means of killing an intruder was the most loving thing in a certain way because it protects my family.
Derek:But I feel like I should lay down my life even for my enemy. So if, if in first Peter, he says, look, slaves submit to your masters, how would with with what you're talking about and trying to figure out, well, what would be the the greatest good that you could get get from it, how do you avoid consequentialism? How do you avoid an ethic where you justify the means and the ends?
Rosanna:In submission, because it's voluntary, it's it's of oneself. It's not of other people to put on you. But I I agree that there is a lot of people who would put submission on someone and say, look. The bible says submit, so you have to. Yes.
Rosanna:You do or you should submit to your husband. But the Bible also prepares for that because I think in Ephesians five, says submit or submit yourselves one to another. So submission isn't a one way street. There is a check and balance in the kingdom, I think, for men and women who are in dysfunctional relationships because sometimes submitting to the good of another means allowing that person to face consequences that based on their own actions. So, basically, sometimes submitting to somebody evil means standing out of the way and letting the evil that they have perpetrated fall on them.
Rosanna:It would be a lot like calling the police on an intruder. The police come to dispense justice or to dispense safety for you, but they don't come to yeah. They don't come to lord it over you and say, okay. Now you had to sit there while he hits you or you have to so, basically, there is a check and balance for the principle of submission in the scripture. Because, also, if I would, let's say, submit the evil, what my husband's doing is committing a sin.
Rosanna:If he sins, I'm basically allowing him to go down a path that is putting him in in judgment of of hellfire or whatever, you know, we believe about hell. But the fact is that's not right. Me me letting him suffer evil without rebuke or without calling him out on it is is not right either. So, basically, in submission, there is always a way a way to submit for the for the good of somebody else even though they it might not seem like they're good at the time, you know, according to them.
Rebekah:Maybe I would define like, take a step back from the, like, Ephesians five context of submission and kind of, like, theologically, I guess we would see our our role or our identity as being followers of Christ, as being disciples, kind of like in the Anabaptist or even in Bonhoeffer's theology, like discipleship. So every single thing in our Christian life falls, like, under the idea that we're supposed to imitate Christ. They were supposed to follow in his example. So that's what kind of like first Peter two. That's what it kind of says, like, he left us an example.
Rebekah:We should follow in his steps. And there's actually a word there are couple words used for that kind of and and Christ's example was that he submitted to the father, and Christ's example was he also submitted, like, he submitted to his parents for a time. The time that he was on Earth, he kind of he you can see him submit to the to the process, the governmental process of Rome. So I would see that as the basis for understanding what submission is. And our our place, our identity is as citizens in his kingdom.
Rebekah:He's our king. And so we're called to, I think Peter says in Acts, to obey God rather than men. I think obedience and submission are two different things as well. I don't think that submission means, like, obey to the letter of the law. So I I think that, like, when first Timothy says submit yourself or when Paul says, and Peter says submit to governing authorities, and then first Timothy two says, quiet and peaceable lies in all godliness and reverence.
Rebekah:To me, that's the best definition of what submission is, to be peaceable, to be reverent, but not necessarily, like, obeying everything because we obviously, the early church didn't obey everything that the government told them to, but they were in submission to the government. Does that make sense?
Derek:Yeah. I think I think that's helpful in that. Now the next question I was gonna ask was, do you do you distinguish between the types of submission for government and, you know, slaves to masters? And, so I think, yeah, I think that kind of answers it pretty, pretty well. Does anybody else have something to add?
Judy:When tyrannical governments have, you know, demanded behavior from God's people that God's people considered wrong or immoral. God's people always choose obedience to God over obedience to government. And I I think in in domestic abuse, in in marriage and and specifically from a domestic abuse, perspective, women women often feel caught between obeying God and obeying their husbands. And I don't think that there's any cut and dried process. There is no one size fits all answer to every situation because every situation is gonna be different.
Judy:Every marriage is gonna be different. But but the the the bottom line is obedience to Christ and, like Rosanna mentioned, not standing in the way of of what God maybe wants to accomplish in an abusive spouse's life, that that has to trump the notions of submission that we perpetuate. Obedience to Christ, submission to His His work always comes first. And that's gonna look different for each situation, each marriage.
Rebekah:From the New Testament, when it comes to the marriage type submission, I actually think that there are two different kinds. So, like, we see Ephesians five where it says submit us to Christ, and that's in a context where it's followed by saying that husbands ought to love and etcetera etcetera. So I think that kind of submission is submit in following an example of Christ laying down his life. And so following that example of Christ, like, submission in that context of in a Christian context is following an example as that authority ahead follows the example of Christ. That's that's what I read in Ephesians five, but in first Peter chapter three, it seems quite different.
Rebekah:And in chapter two as well, it's like it's almost like it's saying submit to Christ and then submit to this authority that's not under Christ in order to be a witness to them for Christ. So it's not like submit in imitation of you know, an imitation of Christ. It's like almost like you're actually showing them an example to lead them
Judy:to Christ. Rebecca, you're destroying umbrellas.
Rebekah:First Peter three. And then yeah. It subverts it subverts the idea. Like, in your submission to them, you are you are leading the way. You're almost like you're you're the one leading them to Christ, but without overtly challenging, without overtly rebelling, without, like, coming against the government and saying, know, you gotta and then and then I would have a a third definition, which maybe is kind of, like, overarching.
Rebekah:The third definition would be the submit to one another thing. Because when it yeah. Because Ephesians five twenty one kind of precedes Ephesians five twenty two, and the the word is not even found in five twenty two, the word submission. It's found in five twenty one, and then it's like in this way, you know, wives to husbands. But before that, it's like submit to one another.
Rebekah:And there are so many passages of scripture. There's like a whole bunch of them that make it very clear that Christians are are to submit to one another and to esteem others above oneself and to not lord it over another but to serve. Like, there are just so many more of that than actually no passage of the New Testament ever says that someone who has, like, authority is supposed to rule over. The word is never rule. The word, like, to rule over, is forbidden by Jesus and never used in the context of one Christian to another.
Rebekah:Mhmm.
Derek:Yeah. I'm gonna have to go back and listen to that section a few more times. I thought that was really good. I I hadn't heard, you know, submission described so much as a as a leading of sorts, which, I mean, it makes sense that, you know, you submit to Christ and and you show the world Him through your life. But, yeah, I thought that was that was very helpful.
Judy:Yeah. I've been pondering just this morning where Paul says, follow me as I follow Christ. He led by following, and he led by giving up his life for the people that he was ministering to. He served them and says, you know, follow me as I serve, as Christ served. And there's something really powerful and really upside down about that.
Judy:It's totally the kingdom, and I love it. The more I understand it, the more I I just love it and can embrace it.
Rosanna:Matthew One
Derek:of the one of the hard things maybe about sorry. Go ahead, Rosemarie.
Rosanna:I was gonna say Matthew 20 actually talks about power over. He says, Matthew twenty twenty five, Jesus called them together and said, you know that the rulers of the Gentile lorded over them and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. So he basically says, you know, your my people are not to have power over others.
Rebekah:And it's super consistent in the New Testament. So the Greek word, if you look at it, it's to exercise authority or to lord it over is never used for a Christian over another Christian. Even the word for rulers isn't used for a Christian over another Christian. In fact well okay. So the word exousia, which is for to exercise authority, it is used, but it's used in first Corinthians seven verse four to say that the authority that like, a wife has authority over the husband and husband has authority over the wife.
Rebekah:So it's kinda it is a subversion of, like, a top down hierarchy because Paul, like, literally takes the only word that is that strong word that means rule over and say, you you let the other one rule over you, and it's mutual.
Judy:And the reality is that we all do have power. Whether we we realize it or not, we all do have power and how we exercise that power. Some of us don't realize it. And so we feel powerless and we act in powerless ways. Some of us realize, and some of us by by position, age, whatever, more obviously have have more power.
Judy:But how we use that power Rosanna used the term power over. We're never meant to use our power over others, to coerce them, to manipulate them, to to to force them to my will. We use our power to empower others, and that's the example of Christ. We use our we lay down the power that we have Mhmm. Or we or we use the power that we have to lift up and and strengthen others whatever shape that takes.
Judy:That's that's submission. That's leading by submitting.
Rosanna:And that's beautiful.
Rebekah:I think that the the translators of the KJV had an agenda, which was that to cement the king's power as head of the church and to cement the church as having authority over people. So in in chapters like Hebrews 13 verse seven, it says, obey that them that have rule over you or that an overseer has to rule or the church. It says, I think, Timothy. But the words used are not rule in Greek at all. It actually words like or in first Thessalonians five twelve.
Rebekah:All these words actually mean to care for or to lead by example like prostamy. It's it's a it's a gentle shepherding. It's caring for. It's in no way exerting authority over. It it always is, like, follow me imitate me as I imitate Christ.
Rebekah:That is the literal translation. And even I think Paul says that not that we lord it over you. He actually and then the word there is, like, exercise authority. But in terms of of leading, congregational leading or even deacons leading or managing their household, it always is this gentle you get the idea of, like, shepherding example, that type of thing. It's so different from from, like, in English where it sounds like it's the same word.
Derek:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's amazing growing up in a in a very complementarian setting, which oftentimes ends up being more patriarchal than complementary. You know, it yeah. That I I hadn't heard that before.
Derek:And I was just having a conversation with my friend about Romans 13 the other day and you know, about governments. And in in the King James version, it calls the government ministers, which makes it sound like, oh, they're ministers. They're like, you know, god's anointed anointed people doing his his work. And, yeah, I'm coming to see that language plays a a huge part. Yes.
Derek:Sure. So the next question that I I would have, and I really I know, Judy, you shared. I really liked Michael Heiser's thing that you shared, so I see this kinda coming into it. And and some of the things that you guys were talking about in in regard to divorce and, you know, custody. So one of the one of the things that that the New Testament says is it talks about Paul says and he says this essentially to slaves, which if there's if there's anything worse than a, you know, a woman in an abusive or any spouse in an abusive relationship where she's functionally a slave, I would imagine that it's a slave who's functionally and legally a slave.
Derek:But, I mean, both things are just unimaginable to to me and, I think, modern society. So but Paul tells tells slaves to remain in their position. And and he says this to other groups too, but, like, remain in your position. If you can get free, that's great, but that's not really what you're you're to pursue. And and the early church viewed divorce as as a big problem in part because then you can't restore.
Derek:And and Heizer talked about this with the the Old Testament law saying that you can't remarry a woman that you divorce. So I'd love for you guys to kind of talk to this idea of remaining in your position, whether you agree or disagree with with Paul or the way that Paul's interpreted the early church, and what that might look like if if you kind of take divorce off the table or if you at least kinda kick it down the road and make it a a last ditch opportunity.
Rosanna:Divorce divorce is it seems oppositional, and it is oppositional to marriage. I always go back and say, well, who broke marriage first? Was it was it a spouse who was abusive to his his or her, you know, spouse? Or was it and I think that's what breaks a a covenant because when you get married, you actually vow to love and cherish. You don't just vow to, as one person to be submissive.
Rosanna:You vow you vow to be out for the good of the person that you marry. So a person who is abusive to his or her partner is actually breaking the vow. So I would go and say that that first is a divorce. But on the other hand, if you look at Jesus or or, let's say, God and Israel, Israel broke her vows to God and God remained faithful. I like how you brought that out the other night in conversation.
Rosanna:But then but God called back to Israel. He kept pursuing in love. And I honestly think that that's what a marriage partner should do in an abusive relationship. I I'd prefer to see a partner remain open. There are there are exceptions, I believe, when when a spouse is being detrimental to the to the children as in endanger or even endangering the life of his wife and children.
Rosanna:Sometimes a a divorce protects them in a way that that ensures their their, let's say, financial future. I've known spouses that, used terrible means to, obtain everything that a wife let let's say a wife leaves and a guy might use financial abuse to try to limit the way she can care for her children so that he can get them back in his custody because she's financially destitute. Or so, yes, I've known women who've lost whose whose spouses have been in such deep debt that when they left, they endangered their their wife's credit, and she was unable to provide a living without separating financially. So in some ways anyway, long story short, there's a lot of different ways that maybe a divorce could help protect the children and wife and actually be beneficial to them. But I don't think it's something a a Christian should should should pursue if they don't have to.
Rosanna:But on the other hand, relationship with a spouse can always be healed if the spouse repents. So and that's what we kind of long for is for the spouse to return back to Jesus and and actually enjoy the benefits of a Christian relationship because that is his greater good, and that is what a person who really loves someone looks for. Not vengeance or justice, although justice is really nice. But, like, actually, like, we really want that person to be in an in an enjoyable relationship with Christ that that and have a hope for the future and reap the benefits of marriage and having a family. So I I think, personally, it's a very painful subject, and you can't maybe I I I never tell somebody they can't get a divorce.
Rosanna:I tell them basically how I feel about it. Like, I'm always open to reconciliation. You know, my husband can repent at any time and come back to Jesus. But and and I'm willing to open up that relationship again. But there are there are ways that, for now, I'm pursuing you know, that I'm I'm protecting my children and myself in some ways.
Rosanna:But, you know, it's a very difficult subject because often when people have been badly hurt, they they they're instinctively seeking justice. Like, I want him to hurt as bad as what, and that's a vengeance. And and that's that's a an inborn yeah. Vengeance. It's it's it's vengeance is oppositional to justice because justice seeks for the better of somebody else.
Rosanna:I really believe that. But but vengeance is a natural reaction just like as in somebody comes into your breaks into your house. You want them to stop, and you want them to get out of there. You wanna hurt them. It's instinctive.
Rosanna:But in reality, yeah, you have to think about what's protecting somebody else, so that's why you call the police. You know, you you're you're and and in a marriage, divorce is is the protection that that your children or yourself might need, but it's not really something that I would ever encourage personally. But it's unless, of course, it is for the safety and protection of your children. But even in divorce, I I think the sin the greater sin in divorce is probably remarriage, and that's my personal opinion because remarriage basically prevent prevents one from going back to a spouse. But divorce because I think even in the deuteronomy command, it says not to go back to a spouse after you've remarried.
Rosanna:And that that is more of a breaker of the sanctity of marriage. Just my personal musings.
Derek:I to Mhmm. Go go for it.
Rosanna:Right. It's just my personal musings. I've not I've not since I've never considered okay. I shouldn't say I've never considered divorce. It's not easy to be sing single.
Rosanna:And divorce would help me in some ways, but I I don't feel right about it personally.
Derek:So the, the remarriage thing was was really interesting. And so two two things. First of all, it's, it was really interesting reading Michael Heiser's article, which I'll, I'll put in the show notes. But recognizing that in the Old Testament, God is a divorcee. And I I hadn't thought about that.
Derek:I mean, God divorces Israel. So that was that was fascinating to me. And also reading about, you know, their their idea of, you know, why remarriage might have have been kind of against the law, which wouldn't really apply to us today because of we have different reasons. But anyway, yeah, Judy, would you I know you had wanted to say something about what Rosanna had said and maybe speak to that a little bit more about divorce and remarriage and, you know, Heiser's article, whatever stood out to you.
Judy:Well, I'm I'm with God on divorce. I hate it. I hate it. It damages everyone involved. Nevertheless, god god created that, out or that loophole for a woman in the Old Testament who was in a patriarchal society powerless.
Judy:And he created that out for her so that a husband could not simply drop a woman and leave her unprotected. He had to give her a bill of divorcement so that she was then free from him to enter another relationship where she could be afforded the protection and care and provision that every human needs and deserves. And so God hated divorce. He hates divorce, but it was his provision for the powerless of of Israel. I believe God still hates divorce.
Judy:I do believe that there are still times when, like Rosanna mentioned, it is the only or it is the best option a powerless person has to protect themselves from further harm, their children from further harm. God hates it. God hates death too, for that matter. But but he but he says that that death is precious. Death of his saints is precious.
Judy:God hates divorce, but
Rosanna:the
Judy:provision for the powerless is is necessary in this broken world. And I'm I'm with Rosanna. I will never advise a woman to divorce or to not divorce. I won't. I will simply help her think through the the consequences of whatever she chooses, whether to stay and suffer or leave and suffer.
Judy:Because either way, in a marriage where there is abuse, whether a woman stays or whether she leaves, she and her children will suffer. They may con they may suffer the term is escaping me now. They may suffer abuse by proxy through their through sharing custody of their children. They will suffer if they leave, if they divorce. They will suffer, the stigma in Christian community, especially conservative Christian community, complementarian Christian community.
Judy:They'll suffer stigma of being a divorced a divorcee. They will suffer financially by but possibly by going on their own. But if they stay, they may they may suffer ongoing abuse. They may suffer again financial you know, there's so many things a woman will suffer whether she stays or leaves. And as an advocate, I see my role as helping a woman find her own way, empowering her to find her way through her situation, to find her way through with Jesus in in in a way that helps her to live the most free and the most, in a way that glorifies, like I mentioned earlier, glorifies God the most and honors the others in her life, whether her abuser, her children herself.
Judy:So I don't think I I hate divorce. I do. I don't think it's the evil we've painted it to be. It is a safety mechanism god's given for the powerless, I believe. And I think we've misinterpreted scripture on so much of this.
Judy:We've taken that God hates divorce scripture to mean God does not allow divorce. I would disagree.
Derek:Okay. So let me let me ask a question, because this is this is where I like, when you're talking, when everybody's talking, just it it makes sense to me. And I and and, like, intuitively and emotionally, I'm like, yes. That that's right. But I'm just coming off of an episode, two episodes ago, where I talked about the civil rights movement.
Derek:And Martin Luther King Junior is kind of having it out with some people in his group who are like, Martin, why are you telling us we've been beaten, we've been battered, we're we're being lynched, and you're telling us the oppressed people to just basically sit there and take more of it? But as a Christian, I think, yeah, that stinks that basically the non nonviolent action we are asking the battered people to to subject themselves to being battered some more for an eventual hopeful outcome. And I guess that's that's the question. Like, with with that kind of of intuition and emotion and logic, which makes sense to me with slaves, which makes sense to me with women getting divorced or any spouse getting divorced from an abusive spouse, how do I how do I then go and tell people to do nonviolent action and not say, yeah. You know what?
Derek:You're right. By this point, you should have had justice and you don't. So take to the streets and bring your bats with you.
Rosanna:Here's how I look at it, and I've been in this situation. When somebody's pinning me down on the floor and and hitting me, don't hit back. And it is possible. So there are there are times when a woman is is physically or emotionally, verbally, whatever, being abused. And she cannot, as as hard as it is, and I've done it, I've been guilty of it, hit back or hurt back.
Rosanna:It's just not there are times when that scripture applies in an abusive relationship. But when you're free of that, when the abuse stops for the moment, that's your opportunity to do the next right thing, which is to protect yourself, your children. God never calls anybody to stay when they could run. Because even in, let's say, there's a verse in the in in the bible where it talks about, if they persecute you in one city, flee you to another. And it actually took that verse to get me to realize that, you know what?
Rosanna:God doesn't really say you can't ever run. You can't ever flee. He doesn't say, yeah, Paul, when he was being beaten, didn't attack his his his oppressors. He he submitted to whatever punishment they gave him, but then he took off to the next city when he could. There were times when he was beaten.
Rosanna:Remember that time when he was left down over the wall in the basket? Because and he was beaten almost to death. People took care of him, and people helped him. And Paul didn't say that that was wrong. I should have just stayed and been beaten and killed for Christ.
Rosanna:He he took the opportunity to leave. So, yes, in violence, in while it's happening, by all means, don't attack your attacker. You're just putting yourself on the same level. And it's not easy. I mean, believe me, it's it hurts.
Rebekah:The thing that I think is a problem is when it happens in a church community and people don't do anything about it. To me, like, a church community that just says go back to that without dealing with the root issue or saying reconcile or saying, well, he's penitent, go back. That church is not taking the word of God seriously because, you know, because when there is violence, the the word of God is quite clear that that marriage that does not represent Christ and the church isn't bringing glory to God. Or I think first Peter three says that the word of God may not be blasphemed. And I think that the church has a role in this in this, not to allow it to happen, not to reinforce it and just say submit more.
Rebekah:I think that that because it's the glory of God at stake, because it says that the world knows us by our love for one another, we cannot be be known for closing a blind eye to abuse or letting someone else suffer. If anything, we should be putting ourselves, like, standing in the way of evil is the is the term used. Like, putting ourselves in in the place of, know, being there for someone who is suffering this so that they don't have to suffer alone. The fact that they're suffering this is already a sign of failure in the church, I think.
Judy:I think one thing that I had one thing that I had just wanted to mention in respect to both what Rosanna and Rebecca just shared, we often view divorce as retaliation or as exacting vengeance. And I I know there are cases where it is. Typically, I think an abuser seeks divorce out of retaliation or or revenge. But for an abused woman to seek divorce does not necessarily mean she's seeking retaliation or revenge. Biblically, it's my understanding that in the Old Testament, the word for justice could just it's often the same word that's sometimes translated or is often the word that's translated righteousness.
Judy:And so righteousness and justice are in are exchangeable. They are in they are inter intertwined. They're, yeah, they're basically the same concept. We just use the, English translations use two different words for the same concept. So for a woman in an abusive situation in the church, if we are not seeking righteous, if we are not, confronting her abuser and calling him to righteousness, justice in his marriage, we are doing we are doing him, not just his victims, not just the ones he's oppressing, but we're doing the oppressor a grave disservice by not calling that out and calling him to righteousness.
Judy:For a woman in that situation when there's been years of the other pattern of abusive pattern of relating and and it's not changing, there's children involved or all the variables that are involved for her to for her to to pursue a divorce, to step away. It's not only, for the for the for many women, it's they're not only seeking to step away, to protect their children and themselves, but they really are desperate for something, anything to thwart their husband's evil and to bring him to a place of being forced to face the consequences of his evil in hopes that he will turn and and truly repent and not just give the quick apologies and the I'm sorry's that appease, but really bring you know, to to bring him to a point where he has opportunity for true and deep repentance. And enabling staying and enabling him to continue in his sinful patterns may not be the may not be the way to to do that. Then again, it may. And and every every woman is every situation is different.
Judy:Every woman needs the holy spirit to guide her through that process of deciding what is the righteous, just, holy, submissive way through her own situation.
Rebekah:The phrase take up your cross has often been weaponized against people suffering abuse that says take up your cross means to suffer. And the church tells that, well, you just need to take up your cross and and suffer. But that is just getting it all wrong on on many levels because when it is the cross, it it ultimately should be bringing glory to God. For another thing, it's completely perverted to say that take up your cross means suffer at the hand of another Christian about, you know, whom we can hold accountable to for their actions. So in the book book by Michael Gorman, it's called the cruciform cruciformity, Paul's narrative, spirituality of the cross.
Rebekah:It says it acknowledges that people who are abused, women and other abuse groups have often been called too often by the Christian faith to endure suffering. And that actually, I think, takes away from from the idea that leading is leading by the example of the cross because those people like like Peter was not saying this from a comfortable theologian's armchair writing a book about complementarianism and telling women to submit. Peter was Peter was literally suffering for the faith, and he he in he could he could say something like submit the governing authorities as someone who had literally been almost killed probably many times by governing authorities. He could say that because he was on the ground suffering and would eventually, I think, be likely crucified. He wasn't saying that for for one thing, he wasn't saying it from uncomfortable position.
Rebekah:And the other thing is that he was leading by example, and that's what I think headship means. It means to to lead or any kind of leadership, I think in the New Testament, it means to lead by example first. When it says, husbands, you are the head of the wife and you're supposed to love the the idea is that you're supposed to serve first and sacrifice more. So when a church tells a woman to submit and take up your cross, but they don't do the same for the husband, they are the ones subverting the headship order by saying that, you know, they're subverting it. They're getting it upside down.
Rebekah:The person who's leading is supposed to be the one serve serving first and sacrificing more in imitation of Christ.
Judy:Well, I I just agree with Rebecca so much that those who are leading, those who are what we call in authority, they lead by following, following Christ's example of of laying down their lives. And those of us who are in any position of leadership, that's that's what we do. We we we lead by We lead most effectively and most beautifully by serving, laying down our own just crucifying our flesh and laying down our own desires and wishes and, yeah, following the example of Christ like us like Paul. Follow me as I follow Christ. Mhmm.
Derek:So I I think it's a it's a really good segue because you talk about, Judy, you just talked about the, you know, the body of Christ and stuff. And, of course, the church, it seems like if we are being a community and the church is holding people accountable and the church is coming alongside of people who are abused, then struggling under abuse, and and through that and figuring out how to walk righteously and to be encouraged and uplifted and strengthened, it would still be hard, but it seems like it would be more manageable. So I don't wanna ask it, but I guess a two part question. How have you seen the church respond and act towards the abused and towards people struggling through this? And then on the flip side of that, if I were a church saying, I know that we haven't done a great job supporting people through this, what what can we do?
Derek:What are first steps, or what are some of the biggest steps that we should take to make make living righteously easier?
Judy:What I have seen in in the church I mean, there's a wide range of of responses, you know, as varied as varied as there are church applications on other, doctrinal issues, There are on relating to abuse and divorce. But I've seen some really supportive churches coming alongside women, confronting abusers, supporting the women, making sure they have what they need, caring for for for children, you know, as best we can, and we all do this. We all we all learn as we go. Right? I've also seen some really, really awful situations where, the onus is placed on the wife.
Judy:And and this is where this is where patriarchy and complementarianism really I get really annoyed because if men are the leaders and they are supposed to be making, you know, life happen and making family work and making, you know, they they lead out in all these things, then when a marriage goes bad, they should be going after the man who's making the marriage go bad. But too often, I see is the woman given terrible advice such as submit more, do more. If you wouldn't make him angry, be careful how you how you respond to him, give him more sex, make sure you're making his, you know, the right meals, and they're putting all the weight on the woman to make this marriage work and never confronting the abuser. And so in essence, they're saying, woman, you lead in this. Even though he's the leader, you lead.
Judy:And the logics of it just frustrate me to no end Because if the marriage is is going wrong and the man is the only leader in the marriage, then put the put the weight on him. I don't think god looks at it that way. I think I the way Rebecca described earlier in this episode about what submission looks like and the mutuality of submission and we both follow Christ and lead each other to Him in a marriage, I think then when that happens, we're looking at marriage the way God does. And so if there is a problem in the marriage, we're much better equipped to look at the marriage and say, okay, so what's going on here? Who is perpetuating patterns of relating that are deeply harmful?
Judy:And the fact of the matter is, we all have work to do in relationships. Right? So a woman in an abusive relationship, she has her own stuff to deal with. It's true. But if the if the marriage is dysfunctional in an abusive way, there is an oppressor and there is the oppressed.
Judy:And that's the language of scripture. That's the language God uses. And God always, always calls the oppressor into account, and he always, always provides protection and provision for the oppressed. And that is what we as a church should be doing. And this can be really hard to sort through because there are a lot of, very covert abusers who look good, speak well, have position, and and so many people when they find out what's happening in the home are like, well, I can hardly believe that because he's such a nice guy.
Judy:He's a good boss. I've never seen him act like like what she says he acts like, what the children say he acts like, and they really have a hard time believing. But what I always say to to folks in that in that with that kind of response is, yes. Go ahead. Be skeptical, but believe believe the oppressed because it is very, very, very hard for a woman in that kind of situation to even own or or want to own that her marriage is broken and dysfunctional.
Judy:No woman wants to be in a marriage like that. No woman of God wants seeks out a broken marriage or wants to perpetuate a broken marriage. So sure, by all means, her learn patterns of relating that are healthy and whole and and upbuilding, but do not ignore what she has probably had to work up great courage to admit to herself is happening. And if she's bringing it to you, then believe her by all means. Believe her and support her and dare to enter into her suffering with her and dare to confront the oppressor and, call out his patterns of behavior.
Judy:And when you do that, you will pretty quickly see if if you if you know if you know what to look for, if you know how how if you get a little education and how these things work, that's one thing I would long for is for pastors to gain some understanding. And there's some great resources out there. You said you'd link after the show. I would love if you would link to Chris Moles and Peaceworks University and his the stuff he's got. He's got excellent resources from the church.
Judy:He also promotes nonviolence. So I really appreciate the work he's done in the area of domestic abuse, working with oppressors and the oppressed. But I would long for our church leaders to gain more education in this to be able to sort out and to be able to support both support the oppressed and call out the oppressor, which is what Isaiah one seventeen calls us to. And I have come to, oh, you know, it's a scripture I really appreciate where God calls us to, defend the defenseless, defend the cause of the widow. And in this case, the widow is not a widow by death, but a widow by death of a marriage, and to seek justice for the fatherless, to deal with the oppressors.
Derek:Yeah. One one of the things that you said that stuck out to me as a, you know, as a guy and thinking back to kind of how I used to think, you know, when accusations would come out and be like, well, you know, she she has to substantiate that. I mean, we can't just believe people who come forward right away. And and just ignoring like how hard it is for for women to come forward because it's generally guys who have been in in power, And and also ignoring statistics of, like, well, she's more likely to be not lying than lying. Like, what how many how many percents of accusations are false?
Derek:Not not very many. But the thing that you said that really stuck out to me was, you know, it's taken her it's taken her so long just to believe it herself. And that wow.
Rosanna:In our culture in our culture, it's very, very, I'm gonna say, unusual. Not not that it is, but okay. So I'm the one sitting I'm the woman sitting in church, and I'm thinking, okay. And this is back when I was in a a violent relationship. Everybody else's marriage looks good.
Rosanna:My husband is very charismatic. He's funny. He's he's he's the first one there if you need him for help. Nobody's gonna believe me if I start talking. Plus, he told me, you know, like, if you say something, nobody's gonna believe you.
Rosanna:Or if you leave me, I'm gonna no judge in his right mind will give you custody of the children. You know, like, it's not it's so hard for a woman to think that she's going to believe, and it's so oppositional to the appearance she's been letting happen. Like, my marriage is good because everybody else's marriage is good. I'm the only one in this church who's being abused. Nobody's going to believe me, and it's so odd.
Rosanna:It's so awful. It's so embarrassing to tell this truth that I've been been letting myself get hurt, or I've not been protecting my children because I don't know what to do. It it's so oppositional to admit you're in an in an unhealthy relationship. In a church where marriage is passionately preached about, like, how to be a good husband. You're the only one that that thinks, well, maybe it maybe it is me.
Rosanna:You know? Maybe it's me that's being an ungodly wife. And and I've been putting myself down all these years. Okay. So what I look for when someone talks to me is that really tells me she's been abused is she's constantly apologizing.
Rosanna:She say, I'm sorry. I just don't know what to do. I'm sorry. I know that he hit me, but I hit back, and I'm the one that's admitting all these problems. Like, it's me.
Rosanna:It's me. It's me. You know how many years it takes a woman recovering from an abusive relationship to stop blaming herself? Years. It took me, oh, at least three or four years.
Rosanna:And it takes it takes these women years to say, it's not my fault that he's been hitting me. It's not my fault. I was a good wife. And and so basically, when a church is be somebody a woman is approaching a church, she's going to be saying, I could have done more. I should have done more.
Rosanna:Maybe if I had done this, it wouldn't have happened. And that's a telltale sign that that woman is telling the truth. A guy is not going to admit that he is an abuser. It's just like, well, no. I was a good husband.
Rosanna:She just didn't listen to me. She didn't she didn't she was an awful cook. She was a terrible housekeeper. She just didn't care about me or the children. She was constantly withholding sex.
Rosanna:Whatever. This is what a guy like that is going to say. But a woman is gonna be saying, well, yeah, I did. I I I I was angry. Well, it's true.
Rosanna:She was angry. She was withholding sex maybe. Maybe she wasn't cooking meals right. But did you consider the fact that she was depressed, you know, because of the constant abuse? There's so many factors that that enter into how a church looks at an at a at a dysfunctional relationship, and they almost all play into the wife looking guilty or looking unstable.
Rosanna:One of the things that also even in in in the the legal side of things, when a woman calls the police, she's going to be crying. She's going to be all emotional, and husband's going to appear calm and rational and in control of himself because that's what abusers do. They are in control. And, also, they're the ones that we're hitting. So, of course, the woman is going to be upset.
Rosanna:Sometimes the law knows a little bit better of how to handle domestic violence than the church does. In fact, the world does an exceptionally better job at handling abuse cases than the church does, and that is shameful. It's a shameful reproach on the church. But the world has has given us opportunities to get a protection from abuse order. The world has safe houses in place, domestic violence resources in place.
Rosanna:The church does not.
Derek:Yeah. I I don't know how many stories I've heard of, you know, of incidents being brushed under the rug because, if we were to handle those things in love, it would look bad for us because we'd be acknowledging that our churches have people who are doing those things in it.
Rebekah:I think that I actually think that two kingdom and nonviolent theology plays a big role in this. I think it's a shame that churches that are who may have nonviolence in their creed are not taking the idea of two kingdoms separately seriously. The idea that there's a kingdom of this world under which people are violent, under which people by authority means coercive violence in the world, and then, you know, the kingdom of God is this upside down kingdom. It's a kingdom of peace if Rosanna recently wrote an article about nonviolence in the home, and there's no point saying that we believe in nonviolence if it's not, like, actually actually practiced in our midst as a church body. But the other thing that I would also say is that I think that the idea that of certain kind of locus of power in in in the church, The idea that, you know, power or leadership or authority is is something that's inherently centered around men and, like, leadership is a boys club.
Rebekah:It's going to lead to things like this. I recently wrote an article comparing violence in theology to, like, to this idea of of male dominance, of of authoritarianism because people who promoted, who took the idea of of male supremacy from Greek culture like Augustine and Aquinas were the same people promoting just war and who or the people exalting Constantine as his military strong commander who would take power over, who would seize the throne of Rome for himself. I think there is a link between that between between exalting dominance and power in the in the world and how that plays out in relationships in the church.
Derek:Yeah. And I I mean, I saw this too. Like, the thing that kind of solidified for me to not vote for Trump in 2016 was I was sitting in church and, you know, they were they were advertising for help for a food pantry. And I was like, I don't have time, and, you know, nobody else has time. And then in that, like, same weekend when I was considering not voting, the people were like, you have to vote.
Derek:Like, you you have to go do that. And so I was like, wait a second. So being the church and going and loving people and being submissive to other people and serving, that that's nothing. Like, that doesn't do anything for the world. But, man, my vote, like, to have the reins of power on government, to have the sword in our hands, like, that's what power is.
Derek:And I think yeah. Exactly what you said, Rebecca.
Judy:I think it would be helpful to point out that not all abuse is physical. And I think we're quicker to rescue women who are in physically dangerous situations. But quite a number see, in our in our k. So I come from, on my mom's side, a long heritage of Mennonite Anabaptist heritage and culture. And in in our Mennonite culture, we've taught this whole nonviolence thing about it being physical reality, and that's all very well and good.
Judy:But we can do violence in other ways as well, and physical abuse is not the only kind of abuse that happens in domestic abuse. And I think I think as as the church we've done in in general, we've done better with recognizing and aiding victims of physical abuse, but it can be a lot harder when the abuse is more covert. And that's when it gets really dicey because good, really good manipulators are, of course, going to look good to their communities. And meanwhile, they do they never use a one iota of physical violence to control their victims, but they use the threat of harm in other ways to control their victims. And it can be really hard to sort through that, but I think it's important for us to understand that in Christian settings and maybe even particularly in Christian settings that hold an ethic of non violence, of non resistance, you may see less physical violence, but there is a different, I'm grasping for words here, there is a deeper layer of control by manipulation and coercion in other ways, not with physical force, but in other ways that is really, really hard to see.
Judy:And victims of that type of abuse are often even less supported than victims who have been victims of actual physical abuse. And I think that's something I just want to highlight and call attention to because when, again, when a woman comes to you and she's experiencing something that, where she feels trapped and controlled, even if a hand has never been laid on her, there are relational patterns at play. There may be financial abuse. There may be isolation in other ways. There may be, yeah, other ways of coercing her cooperation with her abuser yeah, that we need to pay attention to.
Judy:And I also think it's important to note, especially for those who are listening or who are confused about what abuse may be or what domestic abuse may be. Domestic abuse is is not necessarily one incident of of a person choosing to relinquish self control and do something harmful. Domestic abuse is when it's a pattern over time of of behavior and relational responses that are for the purpose of controlling another. And so the pattern is important to pay attention to as well when if you are a church leader or a helper who is encountering a woman who who seems to be struggling in this in this way, you're not sure how to help her pay attention to the patterns, look for patterns of behavior in her that that's some of those some of those patterns Rosanna already highlighted, but look for the patterns in her that indicate, that she is truly being abused and oppressed and look for the patterns that she mentions of of the relationship between them where control isn't is at play.
Derek:So yeah. And and Rosanna, when you speak, maybe you could also speak to because I I think we've answered that the church does a poor job. What else can the the church do? I know Judy mentioned some training, but, yeah, what can we do to get better at this?
Rosanna:Yeah. I should I I wanna say this in response to what Judy said. Coercive control is the underlying the underlying words that most people use to describe abuse because I remember in a in a story to illustrate this, Chris Moles says, it takes a man. It only takes one abusive incident for a man to control his wife the rest of the relationship. For instance, he mentions that on their honeymoon, a guy slapped his wife really hard.
Rosanna:And after that, that's all it took for her to start trying attempting to to keep that from happening again, the threat of another slap. And and she she kowtowed to him. She she does what he wants. She tries to keep him happy because he might do it again. So, basically, the threat of what's going to happen can keep a woman in in fear and in a place under and and a guy in a position of power.
Rosanna:Because, basically, the the the impetus behind abuse is I want what I want right now, and I'm gonna get what I want, do whatever it takes to keep what I want and and in place. So, basically, that's that's all it takes. A a course of control is whatever the the the necessity for physical abuse, and I'm gonna just say it like that, is is all it takes. No. I'm sorry.
Rosanna:I said that wrong. Let me see. The the it it only takes the threat of something happening to keep a a woman in control. Right? I mean, to keep a guy in control.
Rosanna:I have I have a document that labels many types of abuse that that would be helpful to include.
Judy:Another thing that I think you asked, Derek, what the church can do to do better at this. Another thing I think is if we as a church begin to pay attention to what matters to God and I think you did some episodes on racial justice and and things like that. I think the black church has a lot to teach us about how God views the oppression and his heart for the oppressed. And I I see a lot of parallels between, the call and the need for, caring for victims of racial oppression and changing systems that perpetuate racial oppression and the need for, care for victims of domestic violence and changing systems that perpetuate or that make it easy for domestic violence to continue. A lot of parallels there.
Judy:And the way that the black church is able to, name their suffering, lament their suffering, move into hope. Lament is always the doorway to hope. And helping us as God's people to lament suffering of others, I think, it's something that I'm learning from the black church. When I when I look now, when I read scripture is an I can't help but see how deeply God's heart is stirred when He sees His image bearers harmed and oppressed in any way. And He always, always, always is seeking to thwart the oppressor and to protect the oppressed.
Judy:So many stories in Scripture where and so much of the prophets, what God was so angry with His people about was that they were not righteous. They were not treating people with righteousness and justice. They were oppressing those who are already powerless. They were empowering themselves more and more. And God was very angry and brought judgment upon them because they were dishonoring Him, not following His ways and His ways are always ways following His ways will always elevate others and not disempower others.
Judy:And so I think to recognize the God who is for the weak and the vulnerable and who is passionate about caring for them and beginning to notice how God feels will change our hearts to notice and speak up for and care for, victims of oppression of any kind, whether that's, you know, abuse or or racial injustice or or any any kind of any kind of abuse and injustice. Our hearts will be moved to to match gods. We'll do a bit as a result, then we will do a better job at dealing with these hard issues that we've done so poorly with.
Derek:Yeah. I I I agree. I think lament is a great answer, and I've actually heard it a number of times from, from the black community. A number of people have said that, that that's important for them. And and also that there are a number of black authors that I've read who said, you know, when there was another innocent black man killed, Philando Castile or or whoever else, and they show up at church the next day in a in a predominantly white church, and they're just they feel weight.
Derek:And they go into church, and everybody's smiling and shaking hands, and they sing upbeat praise songs, and they're like, I can't do this anymore. Like, they just they just don't get it. And just the veneer that our that my church, our churches tend to have that which is a reason we don't expose abusers because we feel like we have to have it all together. We're we're materialists, and we we've got it all together, and lament would show that we don't or that there are people in our communities who don't. And we're we're at fault for that, whether that's, through sins of commission or through sins of omission.
Derek:Yeah. So lament, very good word.
Rebekah:There was a a chapter I read in a book. It's called remembering the future, and it has several chapters about Christianity and the holocaust. One of the one of the things that was said that was a critique was that Christianity has become triumphalistic, and it has become about this, like, we've won. This is over. And then we miss out on the reality that there are actually people suffering or there there are people suffering here in our church or out there in the world.
Rebekah:We're just, like, we're just celebrating, and that isn't right because that was that's not Jesus. I also had another point with with the previous point is that I think that the New Testament gives us a basis for believing that those with more power, like, for example, those with more wealth or those with more freedom are actually required to lay down
Judy:Yes.
Rebekah:More. So it's not it's not like, everyone is called to suffer because some people are already suffering. They're not. They don't need to. You know what I mean?
Rebekah:They don't need to lay down power because they don't have power, but those are more like the rich through the eye of the needle or like god exalts the proud but gives grace to the humble. Wait. God what was that? Something the proud?
Rosanna:Yeah. God Resist the proud.
Rebekah:Resist the proud. Sorry. God resists resists the proud. Yeah. But gives grace to the humble.
Rebekah:So he he lifts up those who are weak, but those who are powerful have to, as being part of Christ, lay that down in in the kingdom.
Judy:Yes.
Derek:So let me let me lead this kind of into our into a last question, which Rebecca and I have already talked about this in in the past a bit. But I I didn't know about John Howard Yoder's, you know, sexual assaults until after he had already become somebody who I I looked up to and and used and was extremely influential for me. And, you know, there's no no doubt in my mind, you know, that that he's guilty and there are significant issues. But it's hard for me because he he forms the backbone of a of a lot of what I've come to understand. And even though a lot of other people say things, the things that he says, he says them so well.
Derek:And so I've struggled with using him, quoting him, recommending his resources to other people. But at the same time, I also recognize that all truth is God's truth, and just because he has acted wickedly doesn't mean that there aren't truths that that people can use from that. So could you guys speak and you might have different perspectives, but I'd I'd be interested to know what you think of using people like Yoder. And then also, how do you how do you then avoid canceling everybody? Like, I mean, so many so many founding fathers or like George Whitfield or Jonathan Edwards owned slaves, or I don't know.
Derek:Going back to post Constantine, how many people didn't advocate for the use of the sword? Like, do we just skip church history completely from 03/10 to, you know, whatever?
Judy:To now.
Derek:Yeah. So to now, I guess. Yeah. So could you guys speak to that and let me know what you think?
Rosanna:Well, I don't I don't think that we should throw out the baby with the bathwater. I I think, like you said, God's truth is God's truth. Even, let's say, somebody that the bible does say, can a can a good can a corrupt frown fountain bring forth good water. Right? Something like that.
Rosanna:No. They can't. The the fruit of that person's life is not righteous. The but can they say things that are true? Yes.
Rosanna:I don't know how it okay. I would I would definitely not accept anything that John Howard Yoder says about sexuality or says about maybe even home life, you know, because things like that. But I I don't think that every every evil guy never says the truth, if I can put it that way, because truth is truth. I don't know. I've never really, you know, I've never really looked up to him as a but I've never really read much of him either.
Rosanna:I I don't think you're gonna find anybody that's totally righteous.
Derek:Yeah. But you'll find lots of people who aren't that crazy wicked in terms of of the things that he's done with oppression of women.
Rebekah:Mhmm. I mean, you could ask this about John Howard Yurder is a particularly strong example. And one of the things that he says, like, really made a big difference for me, which is he says nonviolence isn't about the sermon on the mount. It's about the cross, first and foremost, and we are called to take up our cross and follow Jesus, and that's that is what it is. And I think that's a truth of scripture that's evident in scripture.
Rebekah:I don't think he he came up with it. He expressed it. Like you said, he expressed it really well. I think, like, people like Karl Karl Barth who had issues or or John, George Whitfield who own who who was a a slave owner. I think we actually do need to ask these questions and be in a community that is going to ask the hard questions that aren't easy to deal with and that we need to actually deconstruct not only what was said, but what was not said and how it translated into action.
Rebekah:So, like, personally, I I struggle with with the history of Christianity and antisemitism because I read about the history for a while, like, read all these books about it, and that was, like, a huge, like, crisis, an odd odd kind of reason to have a crisis maybe because of history, but there it was, like, the reality of of of that and what was said and what was not said and what theology because I come from a Protestant background. What Protestant theology missed out on and was not saying is as crucial as what it does say. Yeah. How systematic theology was formulated in a way that that issues like slavery, antisemitism, or oppression of women or Christians using violence, why would these things not core theologies? Why they cast aside as being social justice issues or less important than having all the correct, you know, understanding of Christology and whatnot.
Rebekah:If we if we're not seeing Christ, the cross, and everything that he is, then there's something missing there that that there's, like, a big gaping hole, so called. And the absence of something, I think, is just as indicting as what is said. So I know that's kinda like people say, maybe you're getting too much into postcolonialism, postmodernism, but I think that these things arose after the history of of Christendom and after the second World War for a very good reason. And that's because there were things that were not addressed that needed that now need to be addressed and that be like, at at this point in time, like, the evangelical church after the whole Trump phenomena. So many people are going through deconstruction.
Rebekah:That's actually really hard conversations that really need to be had, I'm really passionate about that, like, the theology wise.
Judy:I don't know that I have anything to add. I'm wrestling through some of this myself as well of what how do you handle how do you handle truth that has been handled by somebody who doesn't live it? You know, how how do you how do you respond to to that? And, you know, Ravi Zacharias is a is a current a current case of that. Like, what do we do with with with all of that?
Judy:And I I don't know that I have answers for that, but I don't think I don't think the one thing I'm committed to not doing is I'm committed to not glossing over people's sins, including my own. Yeah. We can we can speak the truth about we we can speak the truth that sinners have spoken without covering up their sin. We also can speak the truth of what they have done. And separating the two, I think, is is supremely helpful.
Judy:What is truth and and and and and what they said and what is truth and what they did. Let's not ignore either.
Rosanna:Mhmm. That's well said.
Derek:Does anybody have any closing thoughts? Because we're coming up on two hours, and and we can wrap it up. I'd be I'd be happy to talk a little bit more. I know we were talking about complementarianism before we started recording, so I'd it'd be fun to talk about that a little bit. There's something Judy said that that stuck out.
Derek:But anyway, we can get to that later. Does anybody have any closing thoughts or or summaries or resource whatever you wanna plug at this this point?
Judy:I'd like to thank you for hosting this episode. It is a subject that, as you could tell, I'm passionate about. I think it's it's something that that the church is ripe to address and to deal with. And I am I am you know, when we talk about these things, I I know that we are accused of being we can be accused of being feminists or, egalitarian or or, you know, anti anti biblical even. And my heart is not to take authority over anybody in any way or to gain position or power in any way.
Judy:My passion is to to know God's heart, and I believe that God's heart is to empower the powerless. And God's heart is for us all to walk in freedom with Christ in submission to okay. Sorry. That made me laugh. That puppy.
Judy:But to to walk in submission to him and to each other. And and I don't think we've done that well. We've called one gender to to to walk in power under, and we've elevated another gender to have all the power. And I don't believe that is the way of Christ. I don't believe that was God's creational intent in the garden.
Judy:And I just want to get back to what God is up to in both men and women. I don't want men to be cheated out of anything, and I don't want women to be cheated out of anything in the kingdom of God. So thank you for giving us this opportunity. It really deeply moved me at one point. You probably heard tears in my voice, but just to to have a a man giving women voice, to speak about this hard this hard topic of of women in submission, especially in cases of abuse.
Judy:And I'm just deeply grateful that there are men like you who are who are willing to look at this topic and address it. Appreciate that a lot.
Derek:Thank you.
Rosanna:I back her up. I believe that, yeah, it's just a privilege to actually talk to a guy who wants to hear women talk about it. And, yes, my dog barked at the mailman. But, anyway, yes, I'm really I'm just really thankful to be to be numbered in the the part of the church that is talking about violence in the home because it's just really it's it's something that I've had to deconstruct in my life, you know, what is godly womanhood. And it has been hard.
Rosanna:It's been very hard to to dismantle the previous teaching that I've had to do that I've been indoctrinated in, beliefs that I've held strongly, and that ended up almost destroying me and my family. And it's just been a privilege to have people that listen and care. And I I very much long to bring a little more awareness and truth about what submission for a woman or a guy, you know, what what godly principles are in marriage. And I just I just long to have more people understand that and be willing to say is the way that I've taught that I've been taught right, or can I question it?
Rebekah:I'm just sitting here listening to Rosanna and missus Vici, and I'm like, they have all these experiences. They've been through so much, and they continue to walk with people through so much. And then I just kinda humbled because, like, I I'm 26. I don't I don't have the life experience or the the ministry experience in any way. I just am basically a young person with questions.
Rebekah:Like many young people today who are questioning so many things, like, that most of the young Christians that I know are are deeply struggling with these questions. They may not have been through abuse or maybe they have, but they have these questions because the church is structured in this way, because teaching is in this way, theology is in this way. So I I think that, I guess, my appeal would be for the church to take these issues really seriously, especially if we want to to connect with the young generation that's asking a lot a lot of hard questions and who may not have a community or or people who who are passionate about these things to wrestle together with. And I would invite anybody who wants to to think and wrestle about these questions to join the community. We have the Kingdom Outposts.
Rebekah:We publish articles on this topic. We published about three articles on on this issue, and we would love to have more conversations, more thoughts, and and to sort of build a community around people who are passionate about this so that, like, I can learn. And I've learned so much from meeting Rosanna and and meeting my friends online who who have the experience and wisdom in this area that really informs so much. Like, I think theology is called the practice of the imagination. I think William Kevinall calls ecclesiology, being the church, practicing something that that is something that metaphysical image, something that's not not tangible, but we are practicing in a tangible way.
Rebekah:So theology really needs to be in contact with real life and real experiences for it to to be meaningful. If not, it's just isn't if not, it's just imagination, and then it falls short. Yeah.
Derek:Well, I wanna thank you you all for coming on and taking a couple hours out of your day and and especially just the openness. I like I said, I'm I'm sure that I don't know what I would be able to do in terms of my my courage and fortitude to just be able to to come on and share that kind of stuff. So I appreciate your openness and willing to to educate me and help me through it. So thank you. This podcast is a part of the Kingdom Outpost Network.
Derek:Please check out the links below to find other great podcasts and content related to non violence and Kingdom Living. So if if you if you need to head out, that's okay. But if you wanna bash on complementarianism for a bit,
Rebekah:we can. They're raring to go.
Derek:Which is yeah. Feel free to go out. But some something that Judy said, like, halfway through stuck out to me, and I don't remember if it was Judy who did you give the oxen example, like, a while back about, like, you know, a marriage or whatever is supposed to be, like, two oxen pulling evenly? Yeah.
Rosanna:Well Rebecca did. Rebecca that illustration of a mixture.
Judy:Rebecca had the memes, and I pushed back because I just couldn't see Jesus behind driving them. I got hung up on the nuance.
Rebekah:No. No.
Derek:I get it.
Rebekah:Kind of a joke about that. That's it's not a fool. I mean, there wasn't a picture with three cows.
Derek:Yeah. But something something that Judy said, she you were you were mentioning about, like, how it just seemed like, you know, basically, guys are in the lead, and and then women are just kinda behind. And I got the picture of the ox in my head about, like, you know, the guy basically doing everything and, like, the ox team going in circles. But I'm not a farmer. I imagine that's how it
Rebekah:would work.
Derek:But That's awesome. It's it's it reminded me when I was up at the gospel coalition and went to that complementarianism seminar. There was a there was a point in it where I was like, oh my oh my goodness. Like, these people are eating it up and thinking it's the best, and it's just so there were some moments that were very gross. Like, this one guy said he said, look, complementarianism, it's not about, like, you know, this list of a hundred things that guys can do and 99 things that women can do.
Derek:He's like, see, women can do lots of things. And then he said, they can be moms. They can give birth. And he stopped there. And and I think it's
Rebekah:like What? He he couldn't
Derek:think of anything else. Yeah. He he's like, what else can women do that guys can't? You know, they can breastfeed. They can have periods.
Derek:Like right? Yeah. But guys can do
Rosanna:that too. Right?
Derek:Yeah. Guys can do that too. So the thing one of the things about complementarianism to me is that they say they say, look. All these things like, women and guys could do basically the same thing. And in my circles, in your circles, you might have more of the, like, partitioning of roles where it's, you know, the woman cooks, guys don't.
Derek:Like, it would almost be a moral issue to do certain things. In my in my sphere, complementarianism, like, doesn't extend to the home because women can work, women can cook, guys can cook, guys can take care of children. So really, yeah, there's there's guys don't compliment the women because guys can do everything. And women, the only way they really compliment the men is through physical functions.
Rebekah:Wow.
Derek:And I just that just struck me as as a very
Rosanna:I have I have a
Rebekah:rant about that. What? Because people because, like, first Corinthians two is, like, the natural man does not know the things of the spirit of God. So there's nothing in a natural physical person that qualifies them to teach, to lead, and there's nothing that you know, Like, I don't the actually, there isn't a single verse in the bible that says men are supposed to have authority or men are supposed to be the ones teaching. We just assume that it's there.
Rebekah:Mhmm. It's not.
Judy:Mhmm.
Rebekah:I would say that I still believe in in headship. It's just that I think we're not basing headship on Christ. And it
Rosanna:I have a head.
Rebekah:It isn't anything to do with it's to do with discipleship, really. Right. And it's not to do with, like, authority or like, if we if we really, really looked at those New Testament passages and and what words they use in not the way that King James chose to have it translated, I think we'd arrive at a a very different position. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Rosanna:I know. I had to struggle with that one.
Derek:Said in the. Go for it.
Rosanna:I I had to struggle with that one. Like, what does head headship mean? You know? If the husband is head of the wife, you know, what does it actually mean? And then I think it was Judy introduced me to the word source.
Rosanna:So, like, men are the source of women, you know, because out of Adam, evil was created, and that makes sense. So it could it could be that. I I just have a hard time now thinking of it as power. Because the more I learn about power in the Bible, the more I realize it is a worldly thing. It's not a it's not a Christian thing.
Judy:You know? And and then and about that whole thing about head being source, I heard something recently that was just like, woah. Now that scripture makes sense for the first time in my life. The scripture is in Peter, I think. Is it Peter?
Judy:Oof. I'm not good with references. Where women will be saved through childbearing. K. I don't know what y'all's take on that verse is.
Judy:But
Derek:First Timothy.
Judy:It is Timothy. You're right. The the this the concept was, yes, men men came first. Men were created first and then women. So they are the head.
Judy:They are the source. Nevertheless, man is birthed of woman, and so you can't do without her. And this is it it sort of flips the whole thing on its head and says, okay. Sure. Man is the source.
Judy:Man is the man there's there's this created order. But let me flip that on its head for you. Man is born of woman. And so if this reciprocal if he is not over, she is saved through childbearing in the sense that her place her place as of not being less than is saved. Isn't it awesome?
Judy:Like, mind blown. Like like, flipping this on its head. He sourced, but that doesn't mean he's Yeah. Has power. It does not mean he's over.
Judy:She gives birth. And and that is sort of her saving grace that says, no. She has equal place at the table, equal place in the garden, equal place in the kingdom. Yeah. He came first, but he comes from her.
Judy:So she's she's her place is saved by that. I don't know how y'all translate that verse, but that verse has never I've never heard anybody make
Derek:sense of verse. From
Judy:Until this. Go ahead, Darrie. What were you gonna say?
Derek:Yeah. That's from William Witt. He's got a book. Sorry. That's from William Witt.
Derek:He's got a book called Icons of Christ. Mhmm. And he used to have he used to have a website which might be archived. But yeah. Because he he also brings in the word Rosh, which the the fear of the Lord is the beginning Wisdom.
Derek:Of wisdom. Right? Well, that the word that they use in the Septuagint or or the no. The word that they use, I guess, Hebrew would be rash Okay. Which means head.
Derek:So the head of fear is the beginning of wisdom.
Rosanna:The head or
Derek:fear fear is the head of wisdom or something to that extent. Or there's celebration I don't know how to say it, but Rosh Hashanah or something?
Rosanna:Yeah. Rosh Hashanah. Head of the year.
Judy:Uh-huh. Uh-huh. The source.
Derek:Yeah. The head of the year. Right? Because Rosh is is head. So but the it's not authority over the year.
Derek:It's the Yeah.
Rosanna:The beginning.
Derek:Fourth Yes. Of the new year.
Rebekah:And and we have Aquinas to thank for head, meaning authority. Oh, seriously? Go on.
Judy:Aquinas? Okay. Aquinas is the source of that?
Rebekah:Okay. Aquinas was like, woman is is inferior, and woman is not as intelligent, and she has to be under men.
Judy:He didn't meet Rebecca.
Rebekah:That's why you have hit, Curry. Like, people don't realize
Judy:Intelligent. Less intelligent. The
Rebekah:the idea that hit is the source is similar to the idea that oh, no. The the the son is the son of God because he came from God. Like, the son proceeded the word logos proceeded from the father. So but I think it was William Whitt who says, like, it's not a trinity. It's not a unity if their wills are in conflict and if if they have to be enforcing one over the other.
Rebekah:Yes. That's not that's not that's not a trinity. That's probably some kind of, like, eternal subordination of the sun. And that's why I get really irritated with people who who want to believe in ESS because I think they're changing the trinity to fit how they're training the trinity or the nature of God to fit how
Judy:they want men to rule. To their flesh.
Rebekah:And that's just messed up. Mhmm.
Derek:Yeah. Because that it ends up being hierarchicalism where you basically say, well, look. Women should submit to husbands like guys should, like Jesus submitted to the church or, to God. And that's like, you're you're making the godhead a hierarchy. Like, that's a that's a heresy, subordinationism, you know, all of those things.
Derek:And and we were talking before Judy came. We were talking about, oh, what was it? That yeah. At at the gospel coalition thing in the in the complementarianism seminar, like, they're they're grounding women being subordinate to men. They're grounding that in creation from first Timothy.
Derek:And okay. Like, face value they're like, see, we take the Bible at more of a face value reading. Awesome. But then I'm like, well, yeah, but you also change Romans 16. Junia has to be junias or, you know, you well, Phoebe wasn't really a deacon.
Derek:She was she it just means helper. Like, so we we both take different things at face value differently. We try to explain one or the other away. But there's just this air of of kind of being better. And then I I thought about you guys, and I don't know.
Derek:Rebecca wears a head covering, but my group doesn't. And I was like, so so you ground subordination in in creation, but the head covering is grounded in creation because just as Christ is the head of church, so man is the head of woman, and she should have her head covered. But we don't. There's just so much that that right now like you said, I don't think I can go egalitarian, but I sure don't like a lot of complementarianism. And and I don't know if there's a middle ground between those two.
Rebekah:But Well,
Rosanna:there's the last here's the thing. When it comes to the scripture and when it comes to the scripture about, like, let's say let's just take Galatians where the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness meekness, kinda like a temperance. How can one Right. Be an authority over somebody and yet display all these things. The Bible the Bible and how daily living occurs violates or I should not say violates.
Rosanna:The Bible contradicts authoritarianism. And and in daily life, you just really can't you can't be in a position of power over somebody and yet and and have authoritarianism because it just doesn't work. It can't be scriptural. One thing can't be scriptural if the other one is. And I personally think there's a whole lot of more verses to say to talk about meekness and and humility and kindness that than there is about talking about power over.
Rosanna:So to me, I think the one the one kind of scripture dominates our perception, if you can say it that way. Mhmm.
Rebekah:I think that I would I would disagree with complementarianism because they divide Christians into two separate roles. It's saying there's role a and there's role b and there shall they meet. But I I think I'd rather have a theology that's like anabaptism like cruciformity where the idea is everybody's path is simply following Jesus. There isn't a role a, role b. Yeah.
Rebekah:It's all on this road. Everyone is following Jesus. Everyone is called to take up their cross. But means you're the one Yes. Means, like, Christ who carried the cross and went on before us as an example.
Judy:Mhmm. Yes. Rebecca, you had a really It's
Rosanna:the same
Rebekah:path. It's just who's who's the who's the expert.
Judy:You had a really good Facebook post about that the other day. I think it was. We we were driving, and I read it to Jason. And we were just we spent quite a lot of time just pondering pondering that and discussing that. And I love it.
Judy:It's and it's so empowering. It doesn't disempower anybody to live that way. It's the power of Christ in you that enables one to walk in that way. And it it it doesn't complementarianism always disempowers somebody. And and I don't know that egalitarian does, but I really can't buy I don't feel like I can camp in either camp comfortably.
Judy:But but in in in my estimation, complementarian disempowers. But but what you described right there is empowering to all believers, to all followers of Christ.
Rebekah:Yeah. It's time we it's time we got this out there. That's why you can't take gender theology away from nonviolence or kingdom theology. It it really it's one piece. It's it's one package, and you gotta take it all.
Derek:Yeah. And that's that's part of what what for me is is causing me to has caused me to start looking at complementarianism. And, you know, maybe complementarian complementarianism ends up being right. It's just formatted wrong and but when I look at the fruits of what it produces, you you can say it's one thing all day long, but when I see church after church after church covering for abusers or not supporting women, who or spouses who are abused or I just I mean, the fruit, kind of bears itself out, and it's it's so ironic to me that that our churches, my churches, will say, well, look at the fruit of egalitarianism. You compromise the Bible and you and you throw it away.
Derek:Like, okay. Well, if if you wanna if you wanna judge by fruit, let's look at the fruit of complementarianism. You harbor abusers and perpetuate abuse. Like, I mean, I don't know.
Rebekah:I I don't think I think that we sometimes, mischaracterize egalitarianism, but I still don't I still think there are some things that you have to take take literally in scripture to that it has to mean something. But at the same time, I would say it doesn't mean what Christians for centuries thought it meant. Christians like Aquinas and Augustine. I'm just having so much fun researching this issue because it's it's the like, for for example, the word used for deacons leading and managing their household or for bishops overseeing the church is the same word, the same prostamy. I was talking about that.
Rebekah:It's it's the same word used of Phoebe and with her church in Kincreia and with Paul. And so is is it then a big difference between male and female leading and submitting if if Phoebe is a deaconess and she's also like, the word for leading by example is used of her in scripture.
Judy:Like So you sounded really egalitarian, Rebecca.
Rosanna:Because you wouldn't
Judy:land in there. That can't be there. Because why?
Rebekah:Well, because you don't get to wear cool head covers. You could be you
Judy:could be an egalitarian with head covers. Hey. I don't let it somebody
Rebekah:perhaps. Well, I'm in the the Facebook group, and I find so much to agree with. But I, like, I think somebody said, if it's an egalitarian, then when it comes to laying down your life, both of you would lay down your life, and then you end up both dead.
Judy:Both of the Lord. Hallelujah.
Rebekah:Which I guess you're supposed to. Right. I don't know. I I I I think that Paul subverts it a lot. I think there's there I think we can do more subversion, like, not just shaving our heads and burning our whatever karmas you wanna burn.
Rebekah:You know? Like
Rosanna:Yeah.
Rebekah:I think we can do more speaking into circles that that we wanna say. We take the bible very literally. Though we take the bible literally, that's why we end up at this position. And it's because we wanna be faithful to scripture, not because we wanna have some feminist agenda all over. Right.
Derek:Yeah. Yeah. And forget that I mean, one of the other issues with complementarianism, the way that we we play it out is, I mean, you have to go to the curse to get complementarianism. I mean, to Genesis three, and that yeah. Rosanna, you're muted, by the way.
Derek:Yeah. I don't know if you can unmute yourself.
Rosanna:Yeah. I think too is that that yeah. A lot of people say, well, and he shall rule over you. That means it's a biblical command. And I'm like, no.
Rosanna:That's part of the curse. Yeah. And and who redeemed men from the curse? Men and women. You know, it's Jesus.
Rosanna:So the curse has been done away with. Now can we say that thorns and thistles grow? Yeah. That's part of the curse. But in reality, like, we had to still battle against thorns and thistles too.
Rosanna:We can't just let them grow and say, oh, it's a biblical command that they that we left let them grow. The biblical the biblical responsibility is to fight against it. So the biblical responsibility to fight against the curse is of own women, of men to rule over is to fight against that concept.
Derek:So are you calling complementarianism a weed?
Judy:Yeah. Yeah. I don't wanna wanna
Rebekah:scare people.
Rosanna:In that particular command.
Derek:Yeah. That would explain its that would explain its fruit, I guess. Right?
Rosanna:Yeah.
Derek:Right. So so in your churches, I I mean, I I have assumptions about I mean, I I don't know if you guys are all Mennonites or Anabaptist or if you've kind of changed at all, but what like, are you free to talk about this kind of thing in those churches, or how does how does it work to kind of believe what you believe about kind of the demerits of of complementarianism or at least the way it's played out.
Rosanna:In my church, I'm free to talk about it, but I'm not exactly asking permission either. But yeah. I have people that will argue back, and and all I could say is, you know what? Look. Here's the scripture on this.
Rosanna:And okay. Here in real life, you know, like, I've had to explain why I left my husband. And I've had guys say, yeah. But the bible says you're supposed to submit until death. I said, I have children to raise.
Rosanna:Well, the yeah. The the people would tell me about that you're supposed to submit till death. Well, kind of like as in you know? Yeah. There are scriptures that you can Christ.
Rosanna:Yeah. There there's like, if he if if if somebody's right. That type of thing. But, anyway, the the whole thing is about when somebody is persecuting you, you don't just, like, you don't just persecute them back, and I know that. But here's the thing is I tell people, look.
Rosanna:I've been responsible. I am responsible for the souls of my children, and I can't, in any conscientiousness, teach teach them that it's okay to just be hit, that it's okay to learn to hit your wife, or that it's okay for a wife to stay there and be I said, I'd be wrong. I'd be endangering my children's souls. And in the end, a guy can't argue with that. And I've had people go, well, I never thought of it that way because and and it would have been harder for me to leave if I hadn't had children.
Rosanna:And I have other people that say, well, isn't having children harder in the in in the respect of, you know, being a single parent? And I said, no. No matter what, being in an abusive environment is harder than single parenting because then you're you're not only trying to be responsible for the souls of your children, you're trying to be responsible for your own soul. And it's impossible to almost impossible to live victorious under persecution as in consistently remaining there because you begin to develop feelings of of resentment or fear, lots of fear. And that's that's the basic thing is I started to recognize a pattern of fear in myself.
Rosanna:Like, I'm more afraid of disappointing or upsetting my husband than I am of God because Yeah. My life revolved around keeping my husband happy. It did not revolve around blessing God and and living a kingdom life. It revolved around trying to survive. So yeah.
Rosanna:And that's what ultimately struck me out of of living the way I was. I'm like, oh, wow. This is a sin because I'm living in fear, and I'm not living in reverence. I was studying fear in in the Old Testament, New Testament. I'm like, fear.
Rosanna:I I'm not living in fear of God. So Uh-huh. And not fear as in fear I began to realize it that godly fear godly fear is actually a, how do you say, a fear of disappointing somebody who loves you that much. It's not a fear of like, oh, I'm gonna do this because I'm afraid of what he might do. It's a it's godly fear is not oppressive.
Rosanna:Godly fear is enabling, if that makes any sense.
Judy:Yeah. And there are so so many women that that practically every woman I've ever talked to who's been in your situation gets to that point where they realize that the fear they live with elevates their husband above their god. And they say, I can't do this anymore. I have got to elevate, I've got to elevate God to his rightful place and lower my husband to his rightful place. Often, that means leaving so they can, and people don't understand that.
Judy:They just they just they don't get it. But that I think I think we've done two things. Complementarianism elevates husbands to an unhealthy, unholy place. And and in our churches, we've elevated marriage to an unhealthy, unholy place. We've made marriage idolatry, and we will preserve marriage or what looks like marriage at all costs.
Judy:Mhmm. At the cost of women and children or maybe a man if it's an abusive woman. Mhmm. I I'm not gonna discount the fact that there are women also who are abusive, though that that statistic is far, far, far less. And so and I don't work with abused husbands.
Judy:I work with abused women. So that's that's my focus. But we have elevated marriage, and we have and I watched this happen. We will preserve this marriage that's already dead at all costs. And it doesn't matter because marriage is a holy institution ordained by God, and we will not break it.
Judy:It's it's idolatrous, and it's wrong. And when we when we put preserving an institution above above preserving the the the life and mental health and physical safety and and just the life of a woman and children, we're spitting in God's face. We're doing exactly the things that he called his people and the through the prophets into account for. And and I I feel yeah. Clearly, feel very strongly about all that.
Judy:Mhmm. But what how freely can I talk about this stuff in my church? Somewhat freely. I'm I'm I feel like I'm blessed to be in a church. See, I I worked as a a sexual abuse advocate for years, just kind of on the side.
Judy:And then about three or four years ago, a case came up in our church of a domestic abuse case where the woman approached me and shared her story, and I saw it for what it was right away as, you know, the abusive patterns. I didn't see the full story, you know, of course. But and and so through walking with her and just getting a crash course education through walking with her, and then seeking more training and stuff, I feel I've learned so much. I think the tide is turning. I think the shift is coming.
Judy:I think I think Trump's presidency and some of the stuff that went down that he said, that he did, things that were exposed. And I think too, somehow, the pandemic and the isolation and the and the you know, of the last year has has caused a lot of people to question what they've held dear and or what they've thought they believed. And and there's just, Rebecca mentioned, a lot of deconstructing going on. And I think that that's kind of unnerving, I think, for church leaders. I see it as such a good thing.
Judy:Like, God is on the move. He's shaking things up. And those of us who have had the the the privilege, the grace, the gift to, like, begin to see things a little differently, I think we have a prime opportunity to just keep these dialogues going and these discussions going and and, you know, Rebecca with her research and and oh my goodness. I just yeah. Aquinas clearly didn't meet you.
Judy:Because you are intelligent and your gift to the to to our our podcast crew and to the the to church at large, I think, is just your ability to do your enjoyment of doing this research and then your ability to put it together, to put to put some of these concepts together in a way that we all can be like, oh, layman's terms. I get this now. And that is a real gift, and that's that's not a gift that we've always blessed in women. We blessed it in men and and, you know, the Howard Yoders and all those kind of guys, but I love it. And I do.
Judy:So, anyway.
Derek:I think I think that's a good place to kind of wrap it up because I have to go pick up my daughter. But yeah. I I really appreciate all of your insights. And, I mean, I could I could sit here and talk for hours and hours and hours.
Judy:So That'd be great. But I have to go
Rosanna:and talk
Derek:to my kids. And, yeah, I'd love to chat again. I'm sure some other issues come
Rosanna:on. Okay. Just just Thank
Derek:you guys so much.
Judy:Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for
Rebekah:hosting us. Really great conversation.
Rosanna:It's been fun.
Judy:Really fun.
Derek:And send send send me your links send me your links in the the email Uh-huh. From from the Facebook. I can always send it again. Okay. And, Judy I'll stay on.
Derek:I'll let you know.
Rosanna:Do you want me
Judy:to stay on for minute?
Derek:To hopefully if okay. Oh, yeah. Well, I'll stop it.
